List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part III

[Saint Shags]

The problem I see is Ratts going all out to try and make finals next year, rather than building for a premiership.

The whole club needs to be on the same page.
If they are planning for a quick rebuild whether people like it or not. Ratts needs to be told that the W/L column won't be looked at.

No coach is not going to protect their own arse unless they have a set plan in place.

 

[Ads734]

The thing that got me is that we were prepared to give up Pick 9 and Clark to get Pick 3 (roughly Pick 25 for Clark) but supposedly knocked back another offer of Norths 2nd and 3rd rounders (next year I assume) which you'd think were going to around 19/20 and 39/40 which is a points equivalent of Pick 11.

If that offer was real and early on the piece, I'm sure we could have upgraded our current position of 9, 28, 32, 47 in this years draft.

The only thing you can assume is that the sequence of trades didn't play out so we couldn't do anything else and that we wanted a specific player with Pick 3 and if we couldn't guarantee getting him then we weren't budging.

I'll leave it to the draft watcher ITK to try and figure out who that player is.

The points system places far to much weight on picks later down the order and not enough on high picks. It’s why teams can load up on 3 rounders to cover a first round bid.

 

[Saint Shags]

The points system places far to much weight on picks later down the order and not enough on high picks. It’s why teams can load up on 3 rounders to cover a first round bid.

The only time points should come into the conversation is when dealing with bidding.
If you aren't bidding on something points are not going to matter.

 

[BrutThough]

Yep understand your point, we may have numbers not class. Hill doesn't play in the middle, DMac exceeded expectations but..., NWM huge ceiling, Wood mmm again exceeded expectations but not class in the middle, Byrnes and Jones we have missed through injury.

Agree we have numbers do not have class (yet), have argued for years we need help in the middle.

Daniel Howe wouldn't add anything that our abundance of options in that position aren't already bringing.

 

[Joffaboy]

The first half was fools gold, we were playing ugly footy that was often wins off the back of 10 minutes of good footy. Lots of lower sides in that lot as well. We had no real game plan other than get the ball to King and once sides worked us out we had nothing else. The players looked like they checked out of the systems by late in the year and everyone seemed to be playing to hold their spot, not get a win.

If we don't overrides Rath and Ratts amateur hour stuff we will play more like the second half of the year than the first.

Revisionism. Our football was anything but ugly.
I know it doesn't fit you narrative however what you posted is just untrue.
Lower sides? Freo, Richmond, Geelong are lower sides? You make up rubbish.
If you look after the bye, I would agree, and this is the reason the season was so disappointing, we had the game to match it with anyone no matter how many Trump like facts you try to trot.
Dont piss on my back and tell me its raining, I have eyes, I saw our games, I saw us 8-3, hell after the GF, I went back and watched our game v Geelong, we matched them and ran over them. And don't give me rubbish that they weren't playing good football, they were very good
So by all means criticise the season, it was a trainwreck after the bye, but don't bullshit about our start, it is as insulting as Gallagher saying we just have to just wait a season or two before glory.

 

[Yawkey way]

If we are bin digging Narkle looks the pick of the delisted players. Daniel Howe at the Hawks played some outside midfield and looked like he had a arrived a couple of years ago. He had some big stats.

Jackson Callow the best of the tall forwards. Hartigan and Skinner are both meh but available. Matt Conroy is a huge raw athletic ruck forward from GC who is only 22. His brother plays league and was meant to be promising.

2022 AFL Retirements Delisting - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au

I like callow, narkle and Howe are both worth a look.

 

[Ads734]

Hypothetically if we were to rebuild and who takes the fall

Bains , Richo , Finnis , Summers, trout , Libba, Lethers, someone else?

Personally I think the issue was the shift in strategy in 2019/2020 to bring in a whole bunch of players. Whilst we won a final our list wasn’t ready yet and forgo first and second rd picks to sccrlerate a process on which we could never really challenge for the 4

 

[stavro#4]

Revisionism. Our football was anything but ugly.
I know it doesn't fit you narrative however what you posted is just untrue.
Lower sides? Freo, Richmond, Geelong are lower sides? You make up rubbish.
If you look after the bye, I would agree, and this is the reason the season was so disappointing, we had the game to match it with anyone no matter how many Trump like facts you try to trot.
Dont piss on my back and tell me its raining, I have eyes, I saw our games, I saw us 8-3, hell after the GF, I went back and watched our game v Geelong, we matched them and ran over them. And don't give me rubbish that they weren't playing good football, they were very good
So by all means criticise the season, it was a trainwreck after the bye, but don't bullshit about our start, it is as insulting as Gallagher saying we just have to just wait a season or two before glory.

When the football department did their “season review”.

• Player availability/Injuries
• Transition of the football
• Forward 50 scoring efficiency (there is apparently some nuts stat where we went from being elite when scoring inside 50 - to being as dangerous as a rubber sword)

Are some areas that came up.

player development was an improvement apparently

 

[Verdun]

Daniel Howe wouldn't add anything that our abundance of options in that position aren't already bringing.

Totally agree re Howe and I was not arguing that, just stating that although we may have an 'abundance of options' we do not currently have class.

I am hoping for improvement especially from Gresham, Owens, NWM, Windhager - that is our future whether we like it or not.

TBH I was hoping we try and get another top 10 / 20 pick to help with getting that class in the middle.

But the outcome is ok if we draft like we did last year with NWM, Owens and Windhager coming in with low draft picks.

Bottom line think we are agreeing re Howe and I am making a different point to you, I'm not trying to argue!!

 

[bergholt]

Hypothetically if we were to rebuild and who takes the fall

Bains , Richo , Finnis , Summers, trout , Libba, Lethers, someone else?

Personally I think the issue was the shift in strategy in 2019/2020 to bring in a whole bunch of players. Whilst we won a final our list wasn’t ready yet and forgo first and second rd picks to sccrlerate a process on which we could never really challenge for the 4

Yeah I think it’s 2020 mainly. We made finals then decided we were almost there. McKernan, Crouch, Higgins, Frawley, Hunter, Wood, a bunch of mature age draftees - only one kid and that was Allison.

 

[stavro#4]

What does our limit demographic look like with the the outs + Cordy & 4 x 18 year olds in?

 

[BrutThough]

Totally agree re Howe and I was not arguing that, just stating that although we may have an 'abundance of options' we do not currently have class.

I am hoping for improvement especially from Gresham, Owens, NWM, Windhager - that is our future whether we like it or not.

TBH I was hoping we try and get another top 10 / 20 pick to help with getting that class in the middle.

But the outcome is ok if we draft like we did last year with NWM, Owens and Windhager coming in with low draft picks.

Bottom line think we are agreeing re Howe and I am making a different point to you, I'm not trying to argue!!

It would be great if McKenzie does fall to use because he has the class we lack.

 

[BrutThough]

What does our limit demographic look like with the the outs + Cordy & 4 x 18 year olds in?

We currently rank 8th, equal with lists that get called young in GWS, Collingwood and Carlton.

GWS is the only one who should draft more than us so we should sit 9th-10th by the end of the draft.

 

[BrutThough]

When the football department did their “season review”.

• Player availability/Injuries
• Transition of the football
• Forward 50 scoring efficiency (there is apparently some nuts stat where we went from being elite when scoring inside 50 - to being as dangerous as a rubber sword)

Are some areas that came up.

player development was an improvement apparently

Hard to disagree with any of those points. If we can turn them around, it should help us get back to our pre-bye form.

 

[lewdogs]

I think what Gags was saying was we didn't think it was the right time to chase guys that cost lots of picks. I probably agree with him.

As for picking up depth like Weidemann it would have helped but it's not the end of the world.

We need to get more out of the list we have. We also need to draft well, we have a pretty good hand this year and next.

Here's hoping.

 

[Verdun]

It would be great if McKenzie does fall to use because he has the class we lack.

Was about to post exactly that, hopeful but not confident.

FN Geelong will probably snag him with their abundant salary cap and multiple picks.....yep jealous.

 

[gringo2011]

We are all here because we are passionate Saints supporters and most of us have a somewhat decent understanding of the goings on at the club, so its interesting to me hearing all this "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda" reactions to the trade period. I know this is a forum to share our thoughts and ideas and we will never 100% agree on any topic, but do people really think there was much more we could of done?

St Kilda Destination Club - No. Why? 1 premiership, 27 wooden spoons.
Several times in our history we have had to recover from horrible money management and we are only just now getting back to a decent spot after Seaford.

I've said this before but we need to understand that even offering the best financial deals to players can't make someone move, We are pretty much stuck because of the way the system is set up in to having to play moneyball and hope we get lucky in our drafting. Interstate clubs will always gain and lose talent regardless of ladder position because of the go home factor and for those wanting to move to Victoria out of the 10 clubs available why would they choose us.

We had a go at DeGoey which didn't workout but really the only way that opportunity came about was him being a douche and Collingwood pulling their offer before they saw him play finals. We weren't in the picture with Cameron,Taranto,Lever,May,Lynch or when Dunkley first wanted to leave or back when Treloar was deciding that the Pies had a better list then Richmond.

As sad as it may seem we are really just a hoping for the best we can't even get Ben King to come home to the club he supported as a child and play with his brother.

I am open to ideas to change this;
Some believe maybe Ratten is a problem we need to address I think we just lost our momentum after the break and played crap. All I can say is after becoming financial stabile creating great facilities and finally having a decent board all we can do now is hope to win games.

I love a good gif and I think this one sums up us as a club.

Who knows maybe we get Mackenzie even after being screwed by the AFL, Nas,Windhager and Owens continue to improve. Coffield,Billings and Hayes back and in form and Heath doing a Marshall we could do alright.

and remember:

Fortius Quo Fidelius

This idea that we had no agency over where we have got to is wrong. We are where we are because when we were topping up with players like Hill, Ryder, Howard, Butler etc clubs like Collingwood and Freo were loading up at the draft from a similar position. We have added GOPs and moved on similar GOPs to stand still. We did it all arse about and now sit where the plan got us....a no-mans-land.

Hill was a massive misstep, doesn’t have a spot, paid like a superstar and just the wrong player, wrong time and over paid with our future.

We built to be competitive and scrape into finals. No one would build a premiership list like we built, we just wanted a sugar hit but stuffed up by really poor list management with over paying for ordinary players and culling similar players for unders or nothing.

 

[Mowman]

This idea that we had no agency over where we have got to is wrong. We are where we are because when we were topping up with players like Hill, Ryder, Howard, Butler etc clubs like Collingwood and Freo were loading up at the draft from a similar position. We have added GOPs and moved on similar GOPs to stand still. We did it all arse about and now sit where the plan got us....a no-mans-land.

Hill was a massive misstep, doesn’t have a spot, paid like a superstar and just the wrong player, wrong time and over paid with our future.

We built to be competitive and scrape into finals. No one would build a premiership list like we built, we just wanted a sugar hit but stuffed up by really poor list management with over paying for ordinary players and culling similar players for unders or nothing.

Pretty much this and basically what David King is saying
We built the list all arse about and are going to pay for that over the next couple of years
It won’t be quick either, we have two picks this year where we should get someone decent 9 and 28 and it’s not a great draft this year

 

[phantom13]

We need to get over the Bowes thing. He wasnt going anywhere except Geelong as they knew before anyone else and got their claws in a year ago.

Righto champ. I guess we just shouldn’t bother talking about any of it right? All done now so may as well just move on.

 

[Sainter1873]

This idea that we had no agency over where we have got to is wrong. We are where we are because when we were topping up with players like Hill, Ryder, Howard, Butler etc clubs like Collingwood and Freo were loading up at the draft from a similar position. We have added GOPs and moved on similar GOPs to stand still. We did it all arse about and now sit where the plan got us....a no-mans-land.

Hill was a massive misstep, doesn’t have a spot, paid like a superstar and just the wrong player, wrong time and over paid with our future.

We built to be competitive and scrape into finals. No one would build a premiership list like we built, we just wanted a sugar hit but stuffed up by really poor list management with over paying for ordinary players and culling similar players for unders or nothing.

Our strategy this trade period was the right one. We’re keeping our picks and hopefully we’ll select good players with them. Missed out on De Goey but at least we tried.

It’s not as fun but I’d much rather do what we just did than be the trade period winners like we were in 2019. I wasn’t thrilled with any of the blokes we brought in then and I’m not convinced it was the great result we all think it is.

The draft is key and we just need to repeat what we did last year. Much tougher without the academy players that’ll fall in our lap but Mackenzie would be a good start.

 

[stavro#4]

Hard to disagree with any of those points. If we can turn them around, it should help us get back to our pre-bye form.

Clark Coffield King Marshall Windhager Owens NWM Higgins Battle Paton

Hope for 1/2 kids we draft to break through.

Then get full seasons out of Billings/Steele/Gresh/Howard and apparently the bloke they have really missed Dmac.

That’s where they are expecting the lift to come from. Maybe add another 1/2 names.

But ultimately they have been told to lift all facets of their individual developments/training/performances.

From what I’ve heard aswell. Walsh takes absolutely no shit.

He sets the bar. You meet it.

So I’m actually really excited about that appointment, more than I am anything else.

 

[stavro#4]

Pretty much this and basically what David King is saying
We built the list all arse about and are going to pay for that over the next couple of years
It won’t be quick either, we have two picks this year where we should get someone decent 9 and 28 and it’s not a great draft this year

We will have 3 top 30 picks in the “live” draft.

 

[gringo2011]

Revisionism. Our football was anything but ugly.
I know it doesn't fit you narrative however what you posted is just untrue.
Lower sides? Freo, Richmond, Geelong are lower sides? You make up rubbish.
If you look after the bye, I would agree, and this is the reason the season was so disappointing, we had the game to match it with anyone no matter how many Trump like facts you try to trot.
Dont piss on my back and tell me its raining, I have eyes, I saw our games, I saw us 8-3, hell after the GF, I went back and watched our game v Geelong, we matched them and ran over them. And don't give me rubbish that they weren't playing good football, they were very good
So by all means criticise the season, it was a trainwreck after the bye, but don't bullshit about our start, it is as insulting as Gallagher saying we just have to just wait a season or two before glory.

You are so inconsistent, that Geelong game was a 10 minute patch even. Freo, Geelong we’re great wins. Richmond were a worse side than us. The Dockers and Tigers were both missing players as well. Most of the first half sides were easier sides. The harder part of the draft was in the second half. I still don’t think we played many games where we were a much better side. The second half of the year we were a bottom 3 side. It wasn’t even close to good but doesn’t mean the first half was great. As said before if King and Snags convert over league average we win. Otherwise we lose.

 

[MordySaint]

TBH, not overly upset with the trade period this year.

• Hunter Clark kept at the club
• No dumb trades of future or current picks
• Finally looking at the long term not short term fixes

Refreshing to hear some honesty from the club, I hope we never ever use the premiership window statement again.... It's just pure marketing speak and makes zero difference when the players go out on the ground to try to win the game.

Fortius Quo Fidelius

I don't care if posters come out and say its a business now, we need to stand for something. Sport transcends business and business follows sport.

 

[Saintbloke]

You build premiership teams around young developing talent. Players like Hill, Ryder etc are the type of players you bring in to an already strong team to giver an added edge. Our list has been built backwards, as has been said.