List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part III

[Drop Kick]

Then I hope Clark sat Ratts down and said what are you and the director of coaching doing to ensure that players like me reach our potential? Are you implementing the most professional practices as non-negotiable? Are you more concerned with driving high standards or keeping everyone happy? What concrete steps do you think I should take to become a competition leader (No soft-skills/affirmation type inspirational quotes please) What are you doing for the players that need the most attention and help, and do you even know who they are? Is your playing strategy one that plays to the strengths of the team?

How would Clark react if Ratts told him he wants him to ditch the head band,

 

[tomjoad]

Then I hope Clark sat Ratts down and said what are you and the director of coaching doing to ensure that players like me reach our potential? Are you implementing the most professional practices as non-negotiable? Are you more concerned with driving high standards or keeping everyone happy? What concrete steps do you think I should take to become a competition leader (No soft-skills/affirmation type inspirational quotes please) What are you doing for the players that need the most attention and help, and do you even know who they are? Is your playing strategy one that plays to the strengths of the team?

We may "hope" for that...but I reckon Clark looked at Ratts cockeyed, pulled his boxer shorts a couple of inches above his baggy jeans, rolled a smoke and said " Yeah...whatever man," before getting on his motorised scooter and hitting a shrub on the way out.

 

[Present Not Past]

I’m pretty confident based on what Gags said today that the plan is to bottom out, so I doubt we’ll be trading any future picks.

WTF
So the best plan the club has in store for it's supporters is to lose 20 matches next year. **** off.
What a ****ing debacle this club is. After promising it's supporters that a flag was possible in 2018/19.
Now we have to endure this shit.

 

[Saint Shags]

Nah the quote was:

"List boss James Gallagher said supporters, who would have to be in their late 50s to have seen the club’s only premiership in 1966, wouldn’t mind waiting another 12 months to ensure the Saints spiked sharply."

Doesn't sound to me like he expects to challenge next year.

It seemed like a really bizarre statement.

So what are they planning for?

A worse season than 2022? The same?

And how does this line up with Walsh's statements last week?

 

[Air King]

Seriously though thanks to you all for the entertainment over the trade period. Good times as always. Shout out to Gringo for his 15,367 posts and the rest of you combining for the other 45 posts

 

[JediSaint]

Sour

Clark + 9 for 3 is a terrible deal!

IMO yay or nay! For Clark to be traded.
I liked the idea if we could improve our list, bring in a young gun. Would be been ok with 2 x1rnd picks. But not trading him out to only keep one.
A F1st would of been ok too. Going into next year with an extra 1st for Finn Callahan.

 

[tomjoad]

we haven't got a list that can contend, if we did have Gallagher wouldn't have said what he did today.
They went the wrong way about the list build and are adjusting on the run hoping we don't notice

We've noticed.

 

[PJays]

We didn't do much but at least we didn't do anything stupid

Let's hope we nail our draft selections.

If we end up with another Windhager, another NWM and Owens, and those three keep developing in their 2nd seasons then the team will be heading upwards sharply over the next 2-3 years. That's an optimistic look at this.

 

[Munga]

1063 pages for a single trade. Well done everyone and cya in the next thread for 2023!

 

[stfan]

we haven't got a list that can contend, if we did have Gallagher wouldn't have said what he did today.
They went the wrong way about the list build and are adjusting on the run hoping we don't notice

Our biggest problem in recent times is that we have had business types in two non-football people rather than a true football person as the head of our football.

First Ameet Bains, and then Lethlean, has meant that football wise we have had amateurs calling the shots. It is no wonder that all things football at the Saints is such a mess and mish-mash. Repeated bad calls and changes in direction. Most recently over-estimating our list to think we just had to top up with players from other clubs to win a flag, but in doing so most of the top-ups all had flaws. And most will be gone before we actually can become a true Top 4 Contender again.


We have to hope that Walsh, who is a true football person, can pull us out of the hole that we are in.

 

[magd2992]

What a ride. See you fine people next trade period.

 

[austinnn]

WHY SAINTS DECIDED AGAINST GRUNDY PLAY

St Kilda considered making a play for traded Collingwood ruckman Brodie Grundy before deciding to install Rowan Marshall as the club’s No.1 ruck for the foreseeable future.

Ruckman Paddy Ryder has retired and the Saints decided they would prefer to lock in a partnership between Ryder and key forward Max King instead of bringing in the dual All-Australian.

They were unapologetic about their quiet trade period, adamant they wouldn’t go “throwing draft picks (and) money out just to finish sixth”.

They signed lockdown defender Zaine Cordy (Western Bulldogs) as a free agent, who could free up Callum Wilkie to play on a third tall forward and take more intercept marks.

Cordy will also help shelter the Saints’ baby key defenders before they are ready for the rigours of regular AFL football.

List boss James Gallagher said supporters, who would have to be in their late 50s to have seen the club’s only premiership in 1966, wouldn’t mind waiting another 12 months to ensure the Saints spiked sharply.

“There’s a real sense of urgency at our footy club to get better and go up the ladder. But we’re not trying to go up the ladder to finish sixth,” Gallagher said.

“We want to be a team that plays at the real pointy end of the year. If that takes a year longer, that’s OK.

“Our supporters are unbelievably patient. They’re passionate, they are loyal and they are patient.”
.
Gallagher said most of the club’s improvement in 2023 would come from their nucleus who missed large chunks of the year through injury.

Top-10 picks Jack Billings and Hunter Clark played just eight games while captain Jack Steele missed a month mid-season.

“All I know is we’ve got a number of good players that we didn’t get a lot out of in 2022 primarily through injury that are going to come back into our side in 2023,” Gallagher said.

“So there’s a lot of growth there. We played some pretty good footy in the first half of the year. We played some pretty ordinary footy in the second half of the year.

“We’re not miles off.”

The Saints had a red-hot crack at free agent Jordan De Goey, but after missing out Gallagher said: “We’re not just going to throw money at getting other players in or another player that becomes available. We’ve got to be really strategic about that”.

Gallagher said picks in the top 25-30 – and the first six – were being tightly held, but he was content with the draft hand and backed recruiter Chris Toce to nail the talent call.

The Saints hold picks 9, 28, 32 and 47.

“We might have a pick inside 10 and then a couple of picks in the second round, which based on what I’ve seen of this year’s draft, that’s a pretty good hand,” he said.

Call me crazy but I don't really see a problem with any of these comments.

He really didn't say anything like what a lot of people here are suggesting.

 

[Verdun66]

Nah the quote was:

"List boss James Gallagher said supporters, who would have to be in their late 50s to have seen the club’s only premiership in 1966, wouldn’t mind waiting another 12 months to ensure the Saints spiked sharply."

Doesn't sound to me like he expects to challenge next year.

His maths isn’t much good. I am 66 (funnily enough) and was at our 1966 GF win with my Dad and I turned 10 that week. Anyone now in their late 50’s would have been 3 years old at the most. Not sure they would remember it! I can remember quite a lot of that day. Seared on my memory.

 

[Verdun66]

See David King shooting his mouth off again about us. He’s ‘worried’ about the Saints. Says we are in danger of becoming list clogger central.

I thought if we gave all of our good picks away for mid range players (or spuds)……yes, we would become list clogger central. But we didn’t. We kept them to go to the draft. You are damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.

We’ll probably pick up one or two delisted guys of need. Maybe keep a spot for the mid season draft. Mostly new young guys. Good. Then develop them. For a change. Go Damian Carroll.

 

[austinnn]

Looking forward to chief being used

I've become quite partial to Turbo lately

 

[Sunshine Sainter]

Are there any situations in which a player was almost traded and then turned out to come good at his current club and stay long term?

Papley at Sydney Wanted out to Carlton. They couldn't make a trade deal and 12 months later he has signed a long term deal to stay at Sydney. A lot can happen in a year

 

[sunny3193]

Flexibility does little if we can't attract players to the club.

Flexibility offers opportunity.
As does patience.

 

[Baker_for_PM]

We are all here because we are passionate Saints supporters and most of us have a somewhat decent understanding of the goings on at the club, so its interesting to me hearing all this "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda" reactions to the trade period. I know this is a forum to share our thoughts and ideas and we will never 100% agree on any topic, but do people really think there was much more we could of done?

St Kilda Destination Club - No. Why? 1 premiership, 27 wooden spoons.
Several times in our history we have had to recover from horrible money management and we are only just now getting back to a decent spot after Seaford.

I've said this before but we need to understand that even offering the best financial deals to players can't make someone move, We are pretty much stuck because of the way the system is set up in to having to play moneyball and hope we get lucky in our drafting. Interstate clubs will always gain and lose talent regardless of ladder position because of the go home factor and for those wanting to move to Victoria out of the 10 clubs available why would they choose us.

We had a go at DeGoey which didn't workout but really the only way that opportunity came about was him being a douche and Collingwood pulling their offer before they saw him play finals. We weren't in the picture with Cameron,Taranto,Lever,May,Lynch or when Dunkley first wanted to leave or back when Treloar was deciding that the Pies had a better list then Richmond.

As sad as it may seem we are really just a hoping for the best we can't even get Ben King

34

Ben King

Age

24

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

3.5

4star

T

0.5

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.5

5star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.2

3star

G

1.0

4star

to come home to the club he supported as a child and play with his brother.

I am open to ideas to change this;
Some believe maybe Ratten is a problem we need to address I think we just lost our momentum after the break and played crap. All I can say is after becoming financial stabile creating great facilities and finally having a decent board all we can do now is hope to win games.

I love a good gif and I think this one sums up us as a club.

Who knows maybe we get Mackenzie even after being screwed by the AFL, Nas,Windhager and Owens continue to improve. Coffield,Billings and Hayes back and in form and Heath doing a Marshall we could do alright.

and remember:

Fortius Quo Fidelius

 

[sunny3193]

Nah the quote was:

"List boss James Gallagher said supporters, who would have to be in their late 50s to have seen the club’s only premiership in 1966, wouldn’t mind waiting another 12 months to ensure the Saints spiked sharply."

Doesn't sound to me like he expects to challenge next year.

You missed the next paragraphs.
Context.

 

[lewdogs]

so the only really thing to come out this trade period is confirmation on how incredibly cooked we are. Gag's comments today should be a huge red flag. we are going no where fast under this list management.

his primary responsibility is to establish the LONG TERM list strategy to get us a flag and then ensure we implement that strategy.

he's loaded up in the short term, burning a top 5 pick, its gone **** up and hasn't worked and now his whole strategy is we will spend 12 months either finishing top 4 or bottoming out.

like how is that a strategy???????? its neither here nor there. is he aware of the age of some of the key pillars of the side? does he really think one more draft period is gonna fix all our issues?

it's like me going to my boss and saying "look i aim to deliver the work to you on time and on budget, but if it won't meet your requirements, then i won't do it at all and you'll have to wait until i can meet your requirements. that could be 12 months away."

there is absolutely no way thats acceptable.

there literally is no expectation and thats our biggest issue. we've had this flip flopping on the assessment of the side because there is no expectation. just an assessment at the minute. there's no long term plan or assessing us against that plan. its literally 'what you see is what you get' and 'it is what it is'. this was the same problem with the presidents correspondence, its the same problem in the members Q&A sessions.

there literally is no solid plan that is being sold to supporters beyond the latest thought bubble in the moment or what ever they think will resonate with supporters.

now Gags in in richo territory where he gets a 2nd crack at it. can we just cut this one off early and let walsh find a decent list boss and head recruiter.

Just curious what top five pick did we burn?

 

[Sully111]

Yeah unfortunately our trade period was less White Falcon, more Scrub Turkey.

True true

But I feel my disappointment might be at custom shop telecaster levels.

 

[bergholt]

You missed the next paragraphs.
Context.

OK, here's the next paragraphs:

--

--

Like I agree with much of what he says here - except maybe the last sentence.

"We're not trying to go up the ladder to finish sixth" - definitely agree that we need momentum of improvement to actually make grand finals. If we reach for a couple of experienced guys, we could get marginal improvement and never get above sixth. Actually we need a few guys improving fast all together, ideally with the potential to become A-graders. Last year we picked up 3 of those in the draft but before that we really didn't have too many.

Yes most of the improvement this year will come from guys who missed a bunch of games this year. (Though worth noting our injuries weren't actually that bad overall.)

• Hayes 5 games - won't be an A-grader but he'll help team balance.
• Billings 8 games - won't be an A-grader but he's obviously better than he's been showing.
• Clark 8 games - with a clean run at it clearly he's got a point to prove, could be an A-grader still.
• McKenzie 12 games - won't be an A-grader but a pretty important piece of this side.
• Jones 13 games - won't be an A-grader but I haven't given up on him being consistently handy.

Everyone else played 17 or more which doesn't really mean they missed many. Steele definitely was impacted by his injury (though still played 18) so he should be better too, as Gags says. Gresh the other important one for mine though he didn't miss that many.

I just don't think this all adds up to "not miles off" in the context of every other club around us improving as well. The improvement we need comes from potential A-graders. Here they are imo:

• King obviously.
• Gresh definitely, if he had a good pre-season I reckon he could keep his form from the first part of this season.
• Clark is definitely good enough to be A-grade but a bit has to go right for him, including mentally and it's not clear how this trade saga will impact that.
• Wilkie definitely could get to AA seeing he was close this year.
• Marshall but we've actually been saying that for a long time now, maybe he finally gets there?
• Windy definitely but he's 19 and has played 18 games so it's unlikely to happen this year.
• Higgins probably but as a small forward he's at the mercy of everything else that happens around him.
• Coffield maybe if stories regarding his improvement before his injury are true.
• Nas but he's 20 and has played 17 games and we might lose him before that happens.
• Owens but he's 19 and has played 7 games so way too soon to tell really.
• Battle maybe though he's 24 with 77 games and feels like he'll top out below that.
• Sharman maybe as an outside chance.

So a bunch of stuff could go right and some of these could become serious players next year. But glancing over the list it still feels less likely than not.

That's probably just my Saints-supporter pessimism. But in the last 5+ years we've found about 2 A-graders - Steele and Sinclair. Maybe throw in Wilkie as an almost if you want. Seems to be counter-intuitive that our development systems would suddenly get good enough to help a bunch of (seemingly) mentally weak guys finally achieve their potential.

 

[phantom13]

We are all here because we are passionate Saints supporters and most of us have a somewhat decent understanding of the goings on at the club, so its interesting to me hearing all this "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda" reactions to the trade period. I know this is a forum to share our thoughts and ideas and we will never 100% agree on any topic, but do people really think there was much more we could of done?

St Kilda Destination Club - No. Why? 1 premiership, 27 wooden spoons.
Several times in our history we have had to recover from horrible money management and we are only just now getting back to a decent spot after Seaford.

I've said this before but we need to understand that even offering the best financial deals to players can't make someone move, We are pretty much stuck because of the way the system is set up in to having to play moneyball and hope we get lucky in our drafting. Interstate clubs will always gain and lose talent regardless of ladder position because of the go home factor and for those wanting to move to Victoria out of the 10 clubs available why would they choose us.

We had a go at DeGoey which didn't workout but really the only way that opportunity came about was him being a douche and Collingwood pulling their offer before they saw him play finals. We weren't in the picture with Cameron,Taranto,Lever,May,Lynch or when Dunkley first wanted to leave or back when Treloar was deciding that the Pies had a better list then Richmond.

As sad as it may seem we are really just a hoping for the best we can't even get Ben King to come home to the club he supported as a child and play with his brother.

I am open to ideas to change this;
Some believe maybe Ratten is a problem we need to address I think we just lost our momentum after the break and played crap. All I can say is after becoming financial stabile creating great facilities and finally having a decent board all we can do now is hope to win games.

I love a good gif and I think this one sums up us as a club.

Who knows maybe we get Mackenzie even after being screwed by the AFL, Nas,Windhager and Owens continue to improve. Coffield,Billings and Hayes back and in form and Heath doing a Marshall we could do alright.

and remember:

Fortius Quo Fidelius

I think holistically none of us wanted to go HAM in this trade period.

I tend to agree that the DeGoey pitch was smart and even though it missed I’m glad we tried.

Cordy in is whatever really, I see absolutely no benefit in it at all and can’t see how it helps.

My frustration is probably the lack of creativity and the what if’s.

What if we were more proactive about the Bowes and 7 deal. It blows my mind we couldn’t find a way to make the Long trade a part of that AND get Bowes to see a financial and career benefit in coming to us.

With the benefit of a good nights sleep my frustration about whatever we might have been entertaining to get rid of Hunter Clark has disappated. Let’s hope the rumours of us considering Clark, 9 and a future first were bullshit and that Clark has a year of improvement and winds up having a long career with us.

We’ve clearly decided to back our list in to develop and improve and I like that call, we just need to see it happen now. Interested to see people’s best 22 for 2023, few returning from injury and development opportunities there.

 

[SaintJunior]

See David King shooting his mouth off again about us. He’s ‘worried’ about the Saints. Says we are in danger of becoming list clogger central.

I thought if we gave all of our good picks away for mid range players (or spuds)……yes, we would become list clogger central. But we didn’t. We kept them to go to the draft. You are damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.

We’ll probably pick up one or two delisted guys of need. Maybe keep a spot for the mid season draft. Mostly new young guys. Good. Then develop them. For a change. Go Damian Carroll.

His comments didn’t tie in with what we did which was keep our picks as opposed to someone like Essendon who added players who are crap

 

[Grav]

1063 pages for a single trade. Well done everyone and cya in the next thread for 2023!

Wait until next week when the DFA thread starts, supporters will be hungry for anyone, to some they’ll even take Jack Newnes back.