List Mgmt. 2024 List Mismanagement and Trading Part 2

[stavro#4]

Id offer either of NWM or Phillipou 5 year x 950K+ next year just to shake the branch and force St Kilda's hand.

Either of them would be very serious gets...

Agree on above, Finn C would be amazing but cant see us with any chance to get him.

Money isn’t an issue for us. We have a plethora of cap space.

Even if either decided to leave and it would likely be NWM as opposed to Phillipou.

Do you have the currency to make that trade?

Because at the minute it would be the equivalent of 2 first round picks (good ones)

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Money isn’t an issue for us. We have a plethora of cap space.

Even if either decided to leave and it would likely be NWM as opposed to Phillipou.

Do you have the currency to make that trade?

Because at the minute it would be the equivalent of 2 first round picks (good ones)

Would you (personally) have taken Pick 4 for NWM or Phillipou this year?

Was probably our best chance to give up something significant in a trade.

Next year (presumably, optimistically) our first rounder will be mid-round so might not get it done

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Money isn’t an issue for us. We have a plethora of cap space.

Even if either decided to leave and it would likely be NWM as opposed to Phillipou.

Do you have the currency to make that trade?

Because at the minute it would be the equivalent of 2 first round picks (good ones)

Money won't be the deciding issue as he will get a good salary wherever he goes.

It's more a question of where he wants to play.

If he chooses to come home to the Crows, a deal will get done.

 

[stavro#4]

Would you (personally) have taken Pick 4 for NWM or Phillipou this year?

Was probably our best chance to give up something significant in a trade.

Next year (presumably, optimistically) our first rounder will be mid-round so might not get it done

It would have been the basis for any deal. But because of their ages and “potential” I’d argue we would have wanted more.

I’d imagine if you don’t land Draper. Who you do take at 4 will be the main trade piece.

Nas is 21 and just averaged 25 disposals with beautiful foot skills.

Mattaes is 19 and after a rough second season. Finished the season averaging 22 touches and a goal in his last 4 games.

 

[Big Dub]

They're clearly blinded by the numbers

We're inexperienced overall in terms of games played so they didn't want to let Smith go. Were happy to keep him, even though they know he's declining.

The thing is, our inexperience is exaggerated. Worrell for instance is a mature body, calm head. That's experience. He doesn't have games played though, for various factors (injuries and our ineptitude).

Hinge has had injuries and couldn't break into a stronger Brisbane side early. Doesn't give us significant games played but is experienced by any meaningful measure.

A bunch of our players have fewer games played than they should because we've selected cautiously in previous years (we don't now pleasingly) and dicked around with duds for years who we've since moved past.

We don't differentiate between "games played" and the mature, calming influence that experience supposedly provides. Max for instance displays surety under pressure that you want your leaders to show. Old head, young shoulders. We don't have faith that he can fill the Smith leadership void.

What does experience look like on field? We only see the numbers

Dawson (131 games, recent AA, captain, best 22)
Tex (278 games, 641 goals, recent AA, former captain, best 22)
ANB (176 games, premiership, best 22)
Ben Keays (136 games, vice captain, best 22, 100% effort in everything)
Crouch (158 games, best 22, worked his way from out of the team to top 10)
ROB (121 games, vice captain, only AFL standard ruck we have)
Laird (247 games, best 22 (for now))

That's more than enough experience, leadership and inspiration. We don't need to carry guys who aren't clear best 22 players.

 

[stavro#4]

Money won't be the deciding issue as he will get a good salary wherever he goes.

It's more a question of where he wants to play.

If he chooses to come home to the Crows, a deal will get done.

Don’t confuse me. I believe a deal will get done and I’m sure it won’t be a specific club he nominates. It will be best deal for us that gets him home.

But there will be a serious premium on either player.

Pick 4 (or player selected)+ Rachele/Curtain type of premium (player and something else back your way)

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Don’t confuse me. I believe a deal will get done and I’m sure it won’t be a specific club he nominates. It will be best deal for us that gets him home.

But there will be a serious premium on either player.

Pick 4 (or player selected)+ Rachele/Curtain type of premium (player and something else back your way)

Once an out of contract player decides to leave, you won't get a serious premium!

Go back & have a look at past trades.

What did the Cats give up for Smith...

 

[Eagleboy2011]

Dawson (131 games, recent AA, captain, best 22)
Tex (278 games, 641 goals, recent AA, former captain, best 22)
ANB (176 games, premiership, best 22)
Ben Keays (136 games, vice captain, best 22, 100% effort in everything)
Crouch (158 games, best 22, worked his way from out of the team to top 10)
ROB (121 games, vice captain, only AFL standard ruck we have)
Laird (247 games, best 22 (for now))

That's more than enough experience, leadership and inspiration. We don't need to carry guys who aren't clear best 22 players.

Is that correct. ROB our VC.

In fairness he has good off field qualities.

 

[hugecannon]

They're clearly blinded by the numbers

We're inexperienced overall in terms of games played so they didn't want to let Smith go. Were happy to keep him, even though they know he's declining.

The thing is, our inexperience is exaggerated. Worrell for instance is a mature body, calm head. That's experience. He doesn't have games played though, for various factors (injuries and our ineptitude).

Hinge has had injuries and couldn't break into a stronger Brisbane side early. Doesn't give us significant games played but is experienced by any meaningful measure.

A bunch of our players have fewer games played than they should because we've selected cautiously in previous years (we don't now pleasingly) and dicked around with duds for years who we've since moved past.

We don't differentiate between "games played" and the mature, calming influence that experience supposedly provides. Max for instance displays surety under pressure that you want your leaders to show. Old head, young shoulders. We don't have faith that he can fill the Smith leadership void.

What does experience look like on field? We only see the numbers

And to be fair our experienced players really don’t provide much in terms of on field leadership- outside of Tex- they’re usually the ones making the comical errors and then pointing fingers after the fact.

IMO we get more leadership from players like Michaelanney, Worrell, Soligo etc then we ever did from Murphy, ROB, Laird, Smith etc

 

[Big Dub]

Don’t confuse me. I believe a deal will get done and I’m sure it won’t be a specific club he nominates. It will be best deal for us that gets him home.

But there will be a serious premium on either player.

Pick 4 (or player selected)+ Rachele/Curtain type of premium (player and something else back your way)

Bolton went for less than 10 and 11
Bailey Smith went for less than a late first and a late 2nd
Barass went for less than a mid to late 1st, 2nd and 3rd
Houston went for pick 13ish (if you can untangle that trade).

I don't think would Philipou or NWM would be worth more than those players.

A single decent first probably gets it done, even though Saints would hate it.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

And to be fair our experienced players really don’t provide much in terms of on field leadership- outside of Tex- they’re usually the ones making the comical errors and then pointing fingers after the fact.

IMO we get more leadership from players like Michaelanney, Worrell, Soligo etc then we ever did from Murphy, ROB, Laird, Smith etc

100% right

We internally value Murphy and he's one of our more experienced players now and in the leadership group. Yet no player in the competition goes missing in crunch 4th quarters more so than he does.

Leadership? Where for art thou leadership?

For all the good things we do we have a baffling set of internal values.

 

[stavro#4]

Once an out of contract player decides to leave, you won't get a serious premium!

Go back & have a look at past trades.

What did the Cats give up for Smith...

Show me equivalent trades of players who are stars at 22?

Horne Francis was the equivalent of 2 top 10 picks.

Dylan Shiel similar.

Griffin + P6 for Boyd.

The out of contract thing won’t really fly. Neither you or port will finish low enough for that to be a threat and NWM is such a talent that clubs will snap him up long before you get a chance.

The example of smith is poor. Missed the last 12 months with a knee reco. Was offered pick 4 the prior trade period - which was knocked back as not enough. Managed by Paul Connors etc.

There were factors in how that ended up the way it did.

I think if Nas wanted to leave you would be favourites. But it’s going to cost you a lot in asset currency. The kid is a star.

 

[stavro#4]

Bolton went for less than 10 and 11
Bailey Smith went for less than a late first and a late 2nd
Barass went for less than a mid to late 1st, 2nd and 3rd
Houston went for pick 13ish (if you can untangle that trade).

I don't think would Philipou or NWM would be worth more than those players.

A single decent first probably gets it done, even though Saints would hate it.

Bolton went for 10 + 11

And they slightly upgraded 18 to 14.

That is an absolute premium.

Unless you select a vic boy at 4 and he is an utter star year 1. It’s not a cheap trade.

The rest you posed are irrelevant. He would be 22. A star at Moorabbin and recognised across the competition.

 

[Big Dub]

Bolton went for 10 + 11

And they slightly upgraded 18 to 14.

That is an absolute premium.

Unless you select a vic boy at 4 and he is an utter star year 1. It’s not a cheap trade.

The rest you posed are irrelevant. He would be 22. A star at Moorabbin and recognised across the competition.

Freo got the upgrade from 18 to 14, so the trade is less than 10 + 11.

Our next year's first plus Rachele (a pick 6 who has worked out) is more than the trade for Bolton. By some margin.

Won't happen.

 

[stavro#4]

Freo got the upgrade from 18 to 14, so the trade is less than 10 + 11.

Our next year's first plus Rachele (a pick 6 who has worked out) is more than the trade for Bolton. By some margin.

Won't happen.

Fair enough mate.

But in the event he leaves don’t be surprised when your first rounder isn’t enough.

He is a star. They don’t leave on the cheap.

 

[1990crow]

We've managed to get to the point where we will have more experience and quality through the best 22 with our 2024 offseason.

But 2025 offseason has to be about targeting an A Grade player.

Wanganeen-Milera is that.

Happy to let go those that would be in direct competition with him to get a trade done - Sholl, Ryan, Nankervis.

 

[Mutineer]

Fair enough mate.

But in the event he leaves don’t be surprised when your first rounder isn’t enough.

He is a star. They don’t leave on the cheap.

If uncontracted doesn't give the Saints a whole lot of bargaining power if he nominated a club.

 

[Big Dub]

Fair enough mate.

But in the event he leaves don’t be surprised when your first rounder isn’t enough.

He is a star. They don’t leave on the cheap.

Either could go for a Port Adelaide future first. Then we'd all be upset.

 

[stavro#4]

If uncontracted doesn't give the Saints a whole lot of bargaining power if he nominated a club.

It isn’t a lot to hang onto.

It’s a highly compromised draft next year with FS and Academy picks in the first round.

Do you think Richmond North West Coast Essendon etc all clubs who WILL finish below either SA side - pass on a star?

I’m trying to be respectful to your board here when I point this out. But it isn’t the same as the Smith scenario. He won’t be going through any draft and money isn’t going to be a factor to get clubs to overlook him.

If Nas left. It will be a trade and it will cost a lot.

Again, if you take a vic boy at 4 next month. That would be the centre piece. But it will be more than that.

 

[Big Dub]

Show me equivalent trades of players who are stars at 22?

Horne Francis was the equivalent of 2 top 10 picks.

Dylan Shiel similar.

Griffin + P6 for Boyd.

The out of contract thing won’t really fly. Neither you or port will finish low enough for that to be a threat and NWM is such a talent that clubs will snap him up long before you get a chance.

The example of smith is poor. Missed the last 12 months with a knee reco. Was offered pick 4 the prior trade period - which was knocked back as not enough. Managed by Paul Connors etc.

There were factors in how that ended up the way it did.

I think if Nas wanted to leave you would be favourites. But it’s going to cost you a lot in asset currency. The kid is a star.

Port gave up 8 and a future first (ended up as pick 20) plus some junk picks for JHF and Rioli.

Very few teams who trade out a player win the trade.

 

[stavro#4]

Port gave up 8 and a future first (ended up as pick 20) plus some junk picks for JHF and Rioli.

Very few teams who trade out a player win the trade.

Port gave up 8 and what was originally pick 14 prior to compo picks Father son and academy picks.

Plus third and second rounders that made their way back to north in a complex trade

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Bolton went for 10 + 11

And they slightly upgraded 18 to 14.

That is an absolute premium.

Unless you select a vic boy at 4 and he is an utter star year 1. It’s not a cheap trade.

The rest you posed are irrelevant. He would be 22. A star at Moorabbin and recognised across the competition.

Bolton was contracted which is why Fremantle paid a premium.

Smith was uncontracted so picked up by Cats for a bargain.

Suggest you use comparable examples...

 

[Trigger13]

in a world where NWM was coming back to SA, Port would be in a much better position to snag him, as Bergman would be part of the trade. Bergman and Port’s future first perhaps gets its done. Bergman WILL leave next year.

 

[stavro#4]

Bolton was contracted which is why Fremantle paid a premium.

Smith was uncontracted so picked up by Cats for a bargain.

Suggest you use comparable examples...

Again, being uncontracted and staying in Vic after an ACL and refusing to do a medical for another club is a completely different scenario to a 22 year old with no injury history an elite half back in the comp - hoping to get to an SA club who won’t be in the bottom handful of sides.

Do you see the difference here?

Hawthorn offered pick 4 12 months earlier and it was turned down as not enough.

 

[stavro#4]

in a world where NWM was coming back to SA, Port would be in a much better position to snag him, as Bergman would be part of the trade. Bergman and Port’s future first perhaps gets its done. Bergman WILL leave next year.

If you draft any of Lalor Fos Jagga Langford at 4. You’ll be in the same position