List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

[stavro#4]

I take your post and your thoughts in good faith. But you have said:

• hit the draft
• there's no benefit in winning games this season from here on in
• we need top notch mids rather than the merely good ones we already have

and I ask you to provide evidence and you say "do it yourself"?

The onus is on you to convince me this is the way to go. Because I've seen us do this before and we're still not in contention more than a decade down the road. My children are growing up and I want to, at the end of my 90 minute drive to Marvel, see my bloody team win games of football. If you don't to bother making your case, I won't bother spending any more time thinking about it.

We need a specific, rare kind of midfielder. Anything else is kicking the can down the road draft wise. Perhaps it's time to devise a different way to win, because the rules are stacked against us (as I've made the point many times on the perversions of the draft).

I can’t tell you which kid is going to be a gun. I’m not a recruiter. I did however tell you which one I really liked and have you highlights to see for yourself.

This mid you are referring too isn’t falling in our lap in any other way.

 

[Yawkey way]

So again you are endorsing that we tank and not win any more games than we have to

Do you think the coaches and selection committee sit around the selection table and openly talk about tanking and losing games on purpose .... or is just a wink and a nod type thing?

If they have any brains at all then they are looking at how to move this side forward. That means realising this season is gone and looking to next year and beyond. Hard calls need to be made, youngsters assessed, perhaps a last look at a fringe player. All this is going on at the same time as teams including us grade draft talent, look at how we could obtain picks from Brisbane etc.

The whole concept that a team in our position is tanking because we’re doing the above is just crazy imo. Aren’t you sick of just making up the numbers, constantly being told we can’t attract any free agents if we’re not playing finals and a million other excuses that just keep teams like us in a holding position of mediocrity. Imo it’s high time we adopted a more pragmatic approach that’s designed with contending and winning flags in mind.

 

[jimmytigs]

I said if Brisbanes pick 7 or whatever it is and the suns first are on offer. Do whatever we can to land them.

i would like to look at something involving ming,suns first,moyle and fiorini,if we can get 2nds 3rds and a 4th for howard membrey hayes and paton,use a combo of them and our own 3 2nd and 3rd round picks with ming,to get suns better of 2 first rounders,their north compo pick,moyle and fiorini

moyle first ruck,marshall forward/ruck & a solid midfielder & 2 very good picks

suns get ming,their nga kid & still have a first rounder to use or do another deal

sure ive screwed up something somewhere,but im not seeing ming being the player we drafted & im dredding the inevitable decline in value,while he shakes his head in frustration and wallows in red white and black

 

[stavro#4]

i would like to look at something involving ming,suns first,moyle and fiorini,if we can get 2nds 3rds and a 4th for howard membrey hayes and paton,use a combo of them and our own 3 2nd and 3rd round picks with ming,to get suns better of 2 first rounders,their north compo pick,moyle and fiorini

moyle first ruck,marshall forward/ruck & a solid midfielder & 2 very good picks

suns get ming,their nga kid & still have a first rounder to use or do another deal

sure ive screwed up something somewhere,but im not seeing ming being the player we drafted & im dredding the inevitable decline in value,while he shakes his head in frustration and wallows in red white and black

I’m not trading Max.

I’m not looking to rebuild either

 

[phantom13]

And as I posted last week. This is very much a SOS 101 for list management.

Did the same at Carlton as they built. Everyone who wasn’t a guarantee of the future had short term deals. Kept the cap flexibility.

I said if Brisbanes pick 7 or whatever it is and the suns first are on offer. Do whatever we can to land them.

Your list has us delisting or trading 8-10 players and that’s before retirements and some others I think we all think are likely.

That’s a lot if we’re not full rebuilding.

 

[gringo2011]

I don’t think this is a rebuild at all and that wasn’t mentioned to me once.

There was genuine conversation about we are down here the ladder is clustered up and we have the Battle situation playing out.

Lots of close losses. Etc etc.

The theme was very much about do we take a hit to improve ourselves s

We have struggled when our mature depth was tested this year and dropped down to bottom 4. The sides down the bottom have a head start on us.

Losing Gresham, Battle and even guys like Ben Long seems to be culling the guys that are about to hit the peak part of their careers. If we bleed players just as they start to mature we are just a factory for developing players for others.

Close losses aren't wins and weakening what you have isn't a way to improve. I reckon if this is a bottom out I know a heap of Saints fans that just aren't that interested any more. The club has misread the patience levels of their fans. It will be coming up to around 14 years of failure next year. That stopped being cute a long time ago. The couple of sugar hits weren't enough to buy time.

 

[gringo2011]

Not a clear cut gun like Reid last year.

More in line with 2022 - the year we took Pou. Infact I think Ashcroft will also be the best mid this year like that year.

This draft will bat deeper.

2 in the top 5 should set you up regardless of the draft.

Isn't that what we heard with Clark and Coff?

 

[jimmytigs]

I’m not trading Max.

I’m not looking to rebuild either

then RTB needs to change the gameplan to a one where scoring is somewhere in the top 10 priorities,because as it is Max is useless

 

[stavro#4]

Isn't that what we heard with Clark and Coff?

I wish we had 2 top 5 picks in that draft.

Dont you?

 

[The Punter]

I can’t tell you which kid is going to be a gun. I’m not a recruiter. I did however tell you which one I really liked and have you highlights to see for yourself.

This mid you are referring too isn’t falling in our lap in any other way.

The issue I have with the strategy, and I think others have alluded to is as well, is we are uniquely prone to an existential crisis brought on by prolonged uncompetitiveness. West Coast could finish bottom for 10 years and still have a 50,000 person waiting list for reserved seats. St Kilda fans are notoriously fairweather (present company completely excepted). They don't come to games unless we are winning. When it's good it's fantastic (Geelong game last year was the best St Kilda home crowd in a decade, final v GWS not far behind it), and when it's bad, it's awful sitting in a cold, empty indoor stadium with no hope.

I think the recent strategy has been "finish in the middle and see if we can get a Bont type who has one key flaw that saw him drop into the teens in the draft that we can fix". That's why we drafted Phillipou IMO. Owens perhaps is another similar type. I just can't see us being given the same grace to bottom out by the AFL or the media as North Melbourne has been.

So I'll repeat myself again: if you want us to finish poorly so we can access draft talent, you'd better be turning up to games in person. It's the least you can do while the club implements the strategy you have advocated for. I'll be there.

 

[The Punter]

I wish we had 2 top 5 picks in that draft.

Dont you?

One of them was Paddy Dow

 

[stavro#4]

Your list has us delisting or trading 8-10 players and that’s before retirements and some others I think we all think are likely.

That’s a lot if we’re not full rebuilding.

And as you and gringo have overlooked.

I’ve also said they are looking at a few mature bodies from other clubs.

Also, 10 isn’t a lot or a rebuild. We cut 9 last year.

Oscar Adams (delisted), Jack Billings (trade, Melbourne), Jack Bytel (delisted), Nick Coffield (trade, Western Bulldogs), Leo Connolly (delisted), Jade Gresham (free agent, Essendon), Tom Highmore (delisted), Dan McKenzie (delisted), Jack Peris (delisted)

 

[stavro#4]

One of them was Paddy Dow

Picks 4 and 5 (which would be our current hypothetical picks)

LDU and Cerra.

 

[gringo2011]

I would suggest North didn’t nominate because they want the pecuniary benefit attached to pick 1 to go to their own draftee.

If that rule was changed so benefits went to the draftee selected by the club that finished in 18th place, irrespective of the actual pick, Daicos would have been nominated I reckon.

Any thinking around the draft needs to be considered against the backdrop of the AFL’s broader agenda to develop the sport in states with lower saturation (QLD & NSW) to maximise future revenue growth.

The AFL wants Queensland and New South Wales clubs to have a draft advantage, because they need those clubs to develop strong brands underpinned by success.

And the AFL have created a system where the surest way to assemble a successful team is via the draft, and to a lesser degree trading.

Father sons is pure lottery, and the theatre of it definitely has value in the football based entertainment industry. It would be a foolish decision to remove it.

Free Agency is also a pay to play raffle, but it is heavily tilted towards clubs with a bigger stage and a brighter spotlight, and the AFL is the production company that controls both. It’s not a fluke that marquee games like season openers, ANZAC, Dreamtime, always go to the biggest money spinners.

St Kilda suddenly morphing into a Victorian superpower is simply a redistribution of existing assets for the AFL. They really have no business impetus to help us win.

Maybe if they thought a second premiership for St Kilda would see a spike in entertainment ratings. Or if we were failing so badly it was affecting their business model.

The only way for us to assemble the best team in the now, is to improve our draft strike rate, and eke every bit from the group that we do have.

In the long term we need to grow the club brand into something that all industry talent aspires to be a part of.

We have a history peculiar to us, and we should weaponise it, not be embarrassed by it.

The club never cared about success under Finnis and others. It was set up to be a Washington Generals outfit. It will take us 10 to 20 years to recover from that period. They mistook fan loyalty for lack of interest in success. A lot of the board that was there under that regime are still there making terrible decisions.

 

[stavro#4]

The issue I have with the strategy, and I think others have alluded to is as well, is we are uniquely prone to an existential crisis brought on by prolonged uncompetitiveness. West Coast could finish bottom for 10 years and still have a 50,000 person waiting list for reserved seats. St Kilda fans are notoriously fairweather (present company completely excepted). They don't come to games unless we are winning. When it's good it's fantastic (Geelong game last year was the best St Kilda home crowd in a decade, final v GWS not far behind it), and when it's bad, it's awful sitting in a cold, empty indoor stadium with no hope.

I think the recent strategy has been "finish in the middle and see if we can get a Bont type who has one key flaw that saw him drop into the teens in the draft that we can fix". That's why we drafted Phillipou IMO. Owens perhaps is another similar type. I just can't see us being given the same grace to bottom out by the AFL or the media as North Melbourne has been.

So I'll repeat myself again: if you want us to finish poorly so we can access draft talent, you'd better be turning up to games in person. It's the least you can do while the club implements the strategy you have advocated for. I'll be there.

I got to games and I go to training and I spent a stupid amount of times on here and Twitter talking about this club.

I just signed up my sick old man who can’t attend 99% of games to a membership 3 weeks ago.

I’m the least of the clubs concerns.

 

[gringo2011]

And as you and gringo have overlooked.

I’ve also said they are looking at a few mature bodies from other clubs.

Also, 10 isn’t a lot or a rebuild. We cut 9 last year.

Oscar Adams (delisted), Jack Billings (trade, Melbourne), Jack Bytel (delisted), Nick Coffield (trade, Western Bulldogs), Leo Connolly (delisted), Jade Gresham (free agent, Essendon), Tom Highmore (delisted), Dan McKenzie (delisted), Jack Peris (delisted)

Really can't see buying up spuds from other clubs to replace our solid players as a great win sorry. It sounds like watering down the existing list to gamble on the draft again.

They really need to have a plan in place and not just jump around like that last bunch of morons who you also backed in 100% no matter what damage they caused.

 

[BrutThough]

Doesn't matter which pick we had in 2017, we still would have taken Clark.

 

[BrutThough]

Really can't see buying up spuds from other clubs to replace our solid players as a great win sorry. It sounds like watering down the existing list to gamble on the draft again.

They really need to have a plan in place and not just jump around like that last bunch of morons who you also backed in 100% no matter what damage they caused.

We've been pretty consistent with the list management plan that's been spoken about in the media from multiple people at the club - hit the draft, bring in players addressing the outside run need and fit into that middle age bracket so we can keep trying to win games.

Don't get worked up about opinion dressed up as something more.

 

[gringo2011]

Just a few points:

• the "lets get a top 5 pick" strategy is problematic in one way: what happens if we don't get that midfield talent? We've already had reports that this is a deep draft with a low top end and not much drop off as the draft progresses.
• it certainly looks like the club's list strategy is "don't overpay for anyone under any circumstances until we are ready to really compete" (with Max King perhaps the only player this does not apply to)
• McEvoy was a good not great player. Still was at Hawthorn. The issue wasn't letting him go, it's what we ended up getting for him, and the fact he was apparently a leader
• I'm not enamoured by Hawthorn's talent. I think they are at that bit of development where the game plan is working and they're not rated highly enough by other teams to put real work into stopping them (it will happen soon though). North have a more talented list, but they are now in the habit of losing (which is why as a supporter of a sporting team that is built to win, I enjoyed last Saturday on at least some level - I like seeing my team win games of football)

Hawks have a couple of absolute gun mids in Day and Newcombe and a bit of quality depth through the middle and are probably a couple of good talls short of being a better side than us. Their forward line is going to be very good too and Siciliy is elite.

 

[stavro#4]

Really can't see buying up spuds from other clubs to replace our solid players as a great win sorry. It sounds like watering down the existing list to gamble on the draft again.

They really need to have a plan in place and not just jump around like that last bunch of morons who you also backed in 100% no matter what damage they caused.

Because you have the most narrow view on things.

We re-sign Battle.

The same crop of spuds as you call them are the only ones available to improve us next year and you have your first round pick.

So how do you propose we put ourselves on the same path to contention?

 

[phantom13]

And as you and gringo have overlooked.

I’ve also said they are looking at a few mature bodies from other clubs.

Also, 10 isn’t a lot or a rebuild. We cut 9 last year.

Oscar Adams (delisted), Jack Billings (trade, Melbourne), Jack Bytel (delisted), Nick Coffield (trade, Western Bulldogs), Leo Connolly (delisted), Jade Gresham (free agent, Essendon), Tom Highmore (delisted), Dan McKenzie (delisted), Jack Peris (delisted)

Your starting with 10 though, thats not a ceiling, thats a floor.

 

[phantom13]

Because you have the most narrow view on things.

We re-sign Battle.

The same crop of spuds as you call them are the only ones available to improve us next year and you have your first round pick.

So how do you propose we put ourselves on the same path to contention?

I think gringo2011 and i are aligned that the bones of our list are pretty handy to build off.

Howard, Wilkie is a good defensive core. If Van Es comes good body wise, Arie comes on and we keep our rebound thats a good backline with what we already have.

Forward line is similar with King, Higgo, Collar, Butler and the like.

Our run and carry is good with Nas, Hill, Sincs.

Even our midfield with Crouch back Wilson and Pou developing plus picks 4 (and maybe 5) if youre right.

The path is in development and growth, not more recycled stuff.

 

[stavro#4]

We've been pretty consistent with the list management plan that's been spoken about in the media from multiple people at the club - hit the draft, bring in players addressing the outside run need and fit into that middle age bracket so we can keep trying to win games.

Don't get worked up about opinion dressed up as something more.

The only opinion is what I hope we do from here.

The possibility of Battle going is very much the reality we live in today. The possibility of a band 1 compo is a reality and that has all been confirmed.

The 20 something out of contract are positioned that way to specifically allow us to manoeuvre during trade period and allow us to bring in big salaries for peanuts and that means we are going to look at Lobb Macrae etc.

 

[gringo2011]

Do your own research.

The names likely at our pick before the carnival begins for the metro and country guys are Jagga Smith (I desperately want him)Sid Draper

(Last 2 minutes of the below are exceptional)






And the best tall in the draft

Smith looks the ideal player if we finish around 15th. Draper looked a really ordinary last match. Anyway, we'll get a better read after this weekend. A lot of the ideal kids for us are late first round early second and are the more contested guys. Most of the ones in our range are a bit outside.

The draft order is going to fluctuate wildly. Guys like Moraes and Draper are likely to drop a bit. Smillie and O'Sullivan look likely to stay high, I think Jagga could even go higher if he continues his form through the champs.

I'd like pick 4 for Jagga and then you'd probably be happy with some extra picks between 12 and 20.

 

[stavro#4]

I think gringo2011 and i are aligned that the bones of our list are pretty handy to build off.

Howard, Wilkie is a good defensive core. If Van Es comes good body wise, Arie comes on and we keep our rebound thats a good backline with what we already have.

Forward line is similar with King, Higgo, Collar, Butler and the like.

Our run and carry is good with Nas, Hill, Sincs.

Even our midfield with Crouch back Wilson and Pou developing plus picks 4 (and maybe 5) if youre right.

The path is in development and growth, not more recycled stuff.

And I’m advocating building but needing the top end of the draft.

We have missed all the gun free agents this year.

Go to the draft. Use the trade period to improve the draft hand and soak up experienced talent on big salary to improve us short term.

I am not advocating a rebuild.