List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

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stavro#4 said:
There will not be a new offer to Battle. I told you all at the start of the season. We have a value for Battle in terms of salary cap and we have a value for Battle in terms of return on the market.

We are currently at our salary limit. He has a 6 year offer from us. Unfortunately a mixture of poor form and big offers look him leaving is the most likely option.

The situation as it stands has us of the belief it’s a first round compo - and that would exceed our external value (There isn’t a poster on here that wouldn’t think it’s good list management if you could nab a top 5 pick for Battle). That doesn’t mean we are happy he leaves (likely not guaranteed) just that the outcome is acceptable.

Feel like one of Ross or Membrey goes. Looking like Tim.

They are keen to see how much value Howard can recover for the rest of the year. Similar to Battle. Thing with key backs is that clubs are willing to offer overs on salary for free ones. Keep an eye on a few of Adelaide’s tall backs as a potential replacement.

No free agent this year as it stands. They are looking at older players on the fringes they can get for cheap for a year or 2 or 3 that don’t hinder the cap space. Doggies have one or two we like.

Expect a really decent turnover at years end. More focus on youth again.

Hypothetically if you have 2 top 5 picks in this particular draft. You are laughing. Draper and Jagga Smith?

We are also keen on a late first. Think Hotton could fall into that range.

I’ll also leave you with this. North Melbourne desperately wants Trainor. They are willing to trade back from pick 1 to land this kid. We are aware of this as long as it doesn’t cost first rounders.

Max Hall. No idea who he was the other week. But SOS and Dalrymple think he could be top 5 in the Liston trophy if it was happening today. Thats not saying he even makes it at the level. But they like some of the intangibles he has and is a different mix to our current listed players.

Hope you are all well. Footy is shit when your side sucks (again!) but this isn’t full rebuild. There is a few things coming to light now that the blowtorch is applied that needs to be corrected. It will be.
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Wow thats a lot to take in thanks Stavro. There must be some big offers for Battle if we are looking at 1st round compensation. I for one would still be sad to lose him.

Howard not so much, if we can off load him and get something back that would be great.

Be interesting to see if we can find another FB?

On todays game Seb Ross looks like he is cooked. Another who has dropped his bundle is Byrnes has he been told he's going also?
 
stavro#4 said:
There will not be a new offer to Battle. I told you all at the start of the season. We have a value for Battle in terms of salary cap and we have a value for Battle in terms of return on the market.

We are currently at our salary limit. He has a 6 year offer from us. Unfortunately a mixture of poor form and big offers look him leaving is the most likely option.

The situation as it stands has us of the belief it’s a first round compo - and that would exceed our external value (There isn’t a poster on here that wouldn’t think it’s good list management if you could nab a top 5 pick for Battle). That doesn’t mean we are happy he leaves (likely not guaranteed) just that the outcome is acceptable.

Feel like one of Ross or Membrey goes. Looking like Tim.

They are keen to see how much value Howard can recover for the rest of the year. Similar to Battle. Thing with key backs is that clubs are willing to offer overs on salary for free ones. Keep an eye on a few of Adelaide’s tall backs as a potential replacement.

No free agent this year as it stands. They are looking at older players on the fringes they can get for cheap for a year or 2 or 3 that don’t hinder the cap space. Doggies have one or two we like.

Expect a really decent turnover at years end. More focus on youth again.

Hypothetically if you have 2 top 5 picks in this particular draft. You are laughing. Draper and Jagga Smith?

We are also keen on a late first. Think Hotton could fall into that range.

I’ll also leave you with this. North Melbourne desperately wants Trainor. They are willing to trade back from pick 1 to land this kid. We are aware of this as long as it doesn’t cost first rounders.

Max Hall. No idea who he was the other week. But SOS and Dalrymple think he could be top 5 in the Liston trophy if it was happening today. Thats not saying he even makes it at the level. But they like some of the intangibles he has and is a different mix to our current listed players.

Hope you are all well. Footy is shit when your side sucks (again!) but this isn’t full rebuild. There is a few things coming to light now that the blowtorch is applied that needs to be corrected. It will be.
Click to expand...


That sounds like we will be even worse next year though. Do we go bottom 4 for a few years with the change of direction?
 

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Sainter93 said:
I hope we are watching over Josh Rachele’s situation at Adelaide

Has been a massive whipping boy from their fans which is a bit unfair for someone in their 3rd season.

Sure there’s deficiencies but he can seriously play.
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I'd love him but doubt they let him go. We should chase Stengle while he's a FA too.
 
gringo2011 said:
I'd love him but doubt they let him go. We should chase Stengle while he's a FA too.
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Well if we lose Battle as a FA, picking up a FA could dilute, or remove entirely, the compensation that we might have gained for Battle should he go.

On Battle too, the worry is that while say North may have offered huge $$$, that Battle may be ok to move to a club for $$ if he believes that team is more likely for finals success, and/or could offer more big crowd games to play in. That could affect our compensation too.
 
stfan said:
Well if we lose Battle as a FA, picking up a FA could dilute, or remove entirely, the compensation that we might have gained for Battle should he go.

On Battle too, the worry is that while say North may have offered huge $$$, that Battle may be ok to move to a club for $$ if he believes that team is more likely for finals success, and/or could offer more big crowd games to play in. That could affect our compensation too.
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Hawks are the one. They are offering dollars and look ahead of us on this year's form.
 
gringo2011 said:
That sounds like we will be even worse next year though. Do we go bottom 4 for a few years with the change of direction?
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I'd venture that Hugo already offers more than Seb is outputting, whilst continued investment in Hammer will do the same for Membrey.
Losing Batts would hurt but we should be able to cover albeit likely to leak a couple more goals short term. Ari can't be far off a debut so it'll be interesting to watch that space.
Looking at the level of investment needed and the resources available it just doesn't add up. If we can graft a bit by offloading players with inflated value then it's a matter of no choice.
 
ScrappyDo said:
I'd venture that Hugo already offers more than Seb is outputting, whilst continued investment in Hammer will do the same for Membrey.
Losing Batts would hurt but we should be able to cover albeit likely to leak a couple more goals short term. Ari can't be far off a debut so it'll be interesting to watch that space.
Looking at the level of investment needed and the resources available it just doesn't add up. If we can graft a bit by offloading players with inflated value then it's a matter of no choice.
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Like I said would hate to lose battle.
If we are going to get Band 1 compo for him though with 5 of the first 6 picks in this draft marked as mids I don't think we have a choice
 
ScrappyDo said:
I'd venture that Hugo already offers more than Seb is outputting, whilst continued investment in Hammer will do the same for Membrey.
Losing Batts would hurt but we should be able to cover albeit likely to leak a couple more goals short term. Ari can't be far off a debut so it'll be interesting to watch that space.
Looking at the level of investment needed and the resources available it just doesn't add up. If we can graft a bit by offloading players with inflated value then it's a matter of no choice.
Click to expand...



Perhaps Seb is playing a role. Doubt Lyon would carry anyone. Kids offer more in some ways but often it's the small stuff that you don't notice the older players doing that lets the kids run free. Otherwise young sides would all be brilliant and win every game. Getting the balance right is how you come up with a winning side. Geelong has tipped over now their youth and experience quota has increased.

Losing Batts is pushing the cliff out further. We have already let Gresham walk. We've stacked the mid career tier with GOPS at the moment and most don't have much scope for improvement. Battle still has his best 5 years of footy coming up.

WQe said we would match Gresham if he didn't get us a pick straight after our FRDP and it didn't happen. We got Collard who doesn't even look definite to stay in Melbourne let alone become a player of equal value.

If Lyon bottoms us out I think we need to look at the decision makers including the president. We are a bit off top 4 but we shouldn't be anywhere near bottom 4.
 
I don't want to get rid of him but aren't Collingwood screaming out for a player like Max King.
 

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I wouldn’t get rid of Max for all the tea in China 🇨🇳
 
marcus1232 said:
Like I said would hate to lose battle.
If we are going to get Band 1 compo for him though with 5 of the first 6 picks in this draft marked as mids I don't think we have a choice
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I just hate the thought of losing Battle. Obviously there’s a limit to how much we can pay him, but he’s a very useful player and bleeds for the guernsey. Can’t lose blokes like him.
 
Sainter1873 said:
I just hate the thought of losing Battle. Obviously there’s a limit to how much we can pay him, but he’s a very useful player and bleeds for the guernsey. Can’t lose blokes like him.
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Considering that we find it hard to draft and attract players it would be crazy not to do everything possible to hold on to him. If we had to go to FA to get him we'd have to pay what others are paying him.
 
gringo2011 said:
Considering that we find it hard to draft and attract players it would be crazy not to do everything possible to hold on to him. If we had to go to FA to get him we'd have to pay what others are paying him.
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Depends on how much he’s buying into rtb’s message I guess. If he thinks we’re up and comers he might be willing to stay on for a bit less than what’s being offered.
 
gringo2011 said:
Considering that we find it hard to draft and attract players it would be crazy not to do everything possible to hold on to him. If we had to go to FA to get him we'd have to pay what others are paying him.
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Agreed. It’s tempting to convert Battle into a top 10 pick (unlikely to get that but it’s possible) and we draft the next Bont but I’d prefer we prioritise player retention whilst drafting. Losing good players for draft picks just sets us back, unless we can cover Battle, which is by no means certain.
 
Sainter1873 said:
Agreed. It’s tempting to convert Battle into a top 10 pick (unlikely to get that but it’s possible) and we draft the next Bont but I’d prefer we prioritise player retention whilst drafting. Losing good players for draft picks just sets us back, unless we can cover Battle, which is by no means certain.
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Aside from anything else, Josh is an example that players can develop perfectly well at any club.
He came more as a forward than anything. Accepted his change of role, embraced it and developed in every aspect of the game.
Other players can look at him, Sincs and Roma, and have trust that they can fulfil their potential at the saints.
If he keeps improving the way he has in the last year or two (is already in the top 3 or so for marks and uses the ball very well when he gets it), he'll most likely justify whatever it takes for us to keep him. If a team offers an insane amount it might be out of our control, but hopefully that reflects in an equally insane pick.
 
I understand this is going to upset a lot but I think its a move the club should seriously consider!

Looking ahead I am becoming more convinced while he has high trade value we should look to move on from Max King. Some might believe Max is a once in a generation key forward but I beg to differ - at present he is just potential. I know he is still only 23yo but his game is so flawed I just dont see where the expected improvement comes from. He doesnt have the physical or mental reslience, presence or game to build a flag winning forward line around. That said if we were to bite the bullet this year there will be a couple of stand out tall forwards available at this years draft.

I guess the question is are we or could we become a better side and better functioning forward line without him. He does attract the best defender but how often like yesterday does his opponent mark everything almost unopposed. Max is averaging 1.92 goals per game, if he doesnt mark the ball he is a complete liability, his kicking on goal is 50/50, he offers zero forward pressure, he leads once and is gassed, he is too often out positioned and has lead the team and coaches to be too focussed with bombing long it to his location (thats not all his fault).

If we were to find a player who can hold his own in a contest and give a lot more defensively to hold the ball in the F50, I think as a forward group we would be a lot better off. Ive posted it before but I believe Rowan Marshall would be suited to the role if we could find another ruckman eg Moyle. Have Marshall become a leading forward rather than a stay at home until we find another genuine full forward. People are writing off Hayes because of his knee, but I wouldnt be so quick to let him go I think he offers plenty going forward. As a comparison King is on 900k per year Hayes as a rookie would be lucky to be on 200k. Then we have a developing Isaac Keeler who IMO is a natural forward, who is good in the air and on the ground. I know he is being played in defence this year but I see that as part of his development.

I also understand if we lose Battle we may get a 1st round compo in any event. If as Stav has mentioned we are also looking to offload Howard, then losing two key defenders from a solid defensive unit is a big ask. Any Howard replacement is going to be a basically an untried full back, so to lose Battle as well would be a big hit. I understand we have Shoenmaker coming through as a possible Battle replacement and we are also developing Keeler. Hopefully Van Es can get going again next year and can show he has a future as a key defender.

Look at Sydney they are flying atm playing 3 x B grade tall forwards who all contribute rather than one supposed star. Collingwood won a flag last year with Mihocek and Cox as their talls. In reality Cox is a better value player than King because he is a useful ruckman plus he chases and tackles well for a big bloke - he has a presence. How many clubs have won flags EVER playing a full forward who is so limited and flawed. Who would back King to kick a match winning goal when required?

I guess what Im trying to justify is in the short term losing King will hurt, but long term if we have hits with our recruiting I think we will much better off moving Max on. He may go on to have good career else where, but getting 2 x early 1st round picks (plus) would set our club up for years ahead. My player movement preference would be to keep Battle, have him play full back, Shoenmakers CHB and move on Howard and King.

Ive previously stated good teams dont lose key players which is still my belief, I just doubt King is the key player he should be or will become that player. He never looks happy or excited when playing, nor does he inspire his team mates around him like he should.
 
SteeleSaints

I don't think any forward can succeed in our forward line with the current delivery at the moment.
Not Buddy not Plugger Not Dunstall

I think our issues completely stem from our midfield and ball use inside 50.

Whats terrifying is the best user of the ball inside 50 in the last 2 weeks is the bloke we need at the feet of the Key forwards
Jack Higgins
 
marcus1232 said:
SteeleSaints

I don't think any forward can succeed in our forward line with the current delivery at the moment.
Not Buddy not Plugger Not Dunstall

I think our issues completely stem from our midfield and ball use inside 50.

Whats terrifying is the best user of the ball inside 50 in the last 2 weeks is the bloke we need at the feet of the Key forwards
Jack Higgins
Click to expand...


I think we are too tall in our forward half. We need a few more smaller scoring threats and guys that convert.
 
i quoted a bunch of posts and it took up a lot of room. So I’ll just give another long answer.

Re Mission pre game - suspect he is toeing the line. The club and all journos thought it was a done deal the night we beat the pies - I saw sos that night and he was telling a few of us it’s sorted. It was 6 years. Big offer.

Not sure I’ve ever heard a club say a player is gone mid season - but it has gone so far backwards from that night that internally no one is marking him down for 2025 in saints colours right now.

You only need to be guided by Twomey who is adding interested parties by the week now and each week is building up speed to what we all suspect at this point.

So that takes us to compo. It’s based off player age and I believe Battle triggers the most points in their little system as he is 25/26.
Guaranteed salary - he won’t be moving for less money.
Where the deal sits in the top %. This is important - effectively Battle = McKay from last year with all these triggers. The cap increase was only 800k this year. From NEXT SEASON - it goes up $2m.
They are also talking about formalising contract years as a trigger - in which we have 6 on the table.

I can’t for the life of me see why a 26 year old battle turns down a 6 year deal to sign less elsewhere. I can’t see why Battle would turn down 800k to sign less elsewhere.

So you would imagine that if he does choose to leave. It’s 6 years and 800k +. This is his final BIG contract. This is what sets him up for life.

The club have no decision make power here. He is unrestricted and the club shouldn’t be throwing unlimited money for a good not great player.

Now if we have say 4+5 at the draft. We will sort this midfield out once and for all.

What we will then do is look to use our cap space in other ways. There is a blue print running around right now about SOSs body of work. He knows what he is doing - this time he has the support of one of the best recruiters.

We lost 5 games by under 2 kicks. We are 3 games out of the 8. It’s tight margins. So I don’t believe anyone is thinking rebuild. But SOS is a big believer in drafting your big talents and supplementing them with trades and free agency.

I’d move on both Ross and Tim. But only one has 2-3 behind him ready to take over.

Re Ross. He was appointed to give us facts and then correct the course the required amount from there. The fact we have blooded and used so many kids under him is all you need to know.
 
SteeleSaints said:
Ive previously stated good teams dont lose key players which is still my belief, I just doubt King is the key player he should be or will become that player. He never looks happy or excited when playing, nor does he inspire his team mates around him like he should.
Click to expand...
I disagree, I think he just needs a solid run at it fitness-wise.
I think a lot of the issues are psychological. It has been contributed to by our crappy ball movement, meaning that there's more pressure on him to make the most of the limited good opportunities he gets.
I also think that he, Nas, Matteus and Wilson are the players we can build our next 8-10 years around, with Windy, Henry and Owens in support. Possibly throw in Arie and Hugo and we've got the beginnings of something.

Having said that, I think people see Max as some kind of unicorn when in today's game he's not. There are quite a few good 200cm-ish tall forwards in the game now. The unicorn was that (like the De Konigs) there were two of them. Whether people think we need them or not, I think the true value of the Kings would have been them playing together - which seems increasingly unlikely. Won't happen at the Suns either with the other big lug they've got up there now.

I actually think players like Mihocek and Elliott are underrated. They're very smart players who generally stand up in big games. I'm not sure we can say that Hammer and Sharman will be able to do that job yet. Also, teams like the Pies and Swans also get by because they've got mids who can hit the scoreboard. Wilson can, Matteus has shown glimpses. I just think that we've got so many puzzle pieces to put in, that we need to recognise the ones that we've already got, and work from there.
 
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