List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.3

[Tommy Wigs]

Your last comment is interesting. Hawks don't have a guarantee of a list spot, don't think any other club does or ever will. Yet they are successfully attracting talent.



Hawthorn and Newcombe used very questionable tactics to get what they wanted. Didn't the AFL change the rules after they exploited it?

I don't agree that Hawthorn have mined Box Hill. In fact, this year we picked up the best Box Hill player before them. A look at their history shows they've had a few hits, Mitchell & Newcombe the obvious ones. But there were plenty more who have played at Box Hill and been drafted to other clubs.
........


Anyway, I expect to be joked about or mocked now that I've questioned this. But I think it's irresponsible of the club to give up a spot.

If I was the club and had the idea, I would've asked the AFL for an opportunity to grow the VFL and Sandy by offering a Cat B rookie spot...

I don't like it, I understand the theory as has been explained plenty. Some will understand the long game, others will find it irresponsible. It's one of those decisions where it will only be agreed upon in 10 years time, just like our move to Seaford.

Not sure if they have changed it, but yes, they got him to put a stack of coin on his head so that no one else could pick him.

 

[Yawkey way]

Didn't Sam Gilbert do something like this in 2019?

I don’t know to be honest I’m thinking back to the days when we had seconds and u/19’s. A senior guy who’d been around was usually the captain of the two’s and played a mentoring role.

I’m just thinking of how to get sandy an extra experienced player whilst using the spot to give something back to a veteran who’s not ready to hang them up and has given great service.

I was a fan of the veterans allowance and think that anyone who supports father sons and likes a bit of romance in the game should demand it be brought back. It annoys me watching a guy like membrey suiting up for Collingwood.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Not sure if they have changed it, but yes, they got him to put a stack of coin on his head so that no one else could pick him.

Yeah - they changed the terms of the rookie draft to match normal draft rules after Hawthorn got Newcombe by having him nominate a higher than normally allowed salary for his second year as part of his draft nomination.

Now all draftees (including mid season or rookie draftees who have never been on a list before) get the standard 1st/2nd years salary under the CBA.

 

[botts]

Yes we pinched one from Box Hill, but we then didn't keep him in the midfield which i thought was why we recruited him? what was the point?

 

[akaifu]

Yes we pinched one from Box Hill, but we then didn't keep him in the midfield which i thought was why we recruited him? what was the point?

There are soooo many possible reasons for this

He needed to learn our system and its easier to do so from half forward to understand running patterns etc

Maybe we want him playing a hybrid fwd/mid role at AFL level so we have to train his forward craft

Maybe we see him as a permanent half forward

Maybe we just want to find another position for him for the flexibility and versatility

He also did get a few cbas later in the season assuming because he'd familiarised with the game plan and system

 

[SteeleSaints]

Yes we pinched one from Box Hill, but we then didn't keep him in the midfield which i thought was why we recruited him? what was the point?

I think that was because he was struggling with his back injury...hopefully he gets a good run at it next year.

 

[Imtellingya]

In the contrary. What we have done with the Benier (spelling?) shows you can.

Get a kid like that to play half a season and they can be buried back at Parkdale vultures as an example.

We needed a gateway/link to attract the players. This season showed a different level of thinking that shows some value for the club.

I attended many of the Saints training sessions this year, both pre season and in season. There always seemed to be at least one and sometimes up to 3 Sandy blokes training with the group. They would drop out when it came to match sim.

 

[austinnn]

Of course Sandy looked better when the majority of the team was AFL listed players. Of course the full time football program those listed players are apart of is where majority of their development happens. Water is also wet.

The main goal at Sandy is to develop the AFL players and improve their individual performance. That was achieved this year. Winning games is nice but that's not their main objective. Might suck losing by 20 points but if Keeler improved in his defensive craft, Phillipou influenced the game more than last week and Collard kicked 3 after being goalless the week before, it's been a relatively successful day for the programs objectives. You might disagree with this approach but take that up with Ross who made this very clear to Jake Bachelor that AFL listed players developing in their AFL roles is his number 1 priority.

We already run everything football at Sandy. Changing the jumper and name of where our 2nds run isnt going to change our on field approach. That's just some romantic notion created by fans. And no matter the name of our 2nds program, it's going to be the same bloke not called Ross Lyon ringing up the fill ins.

The second paragraph is a very good point. Sandy's priority must always be development. However, it's a good idea to extend that to the coaching and there is no reason why a team in development cannot also succeed.

Changing the colours won't change anything on field: true. It will homogenise the teams and create a stronger off field (promotional) unity that can be used to attract better players and more viewers.

 

[jimmytigs]

For the 100th time, we cant expect their recruiting to immediately turn around in one off season. It will take time and actual proof from us that we will uphold our end of the bargain.

so when sandringhams recruiting does turn around,who is going to come celebrate with me after the saints finish 9th and 18th or 19th placed big melbourne club on their first rebuild in years(not richmond)selects jo blow otherwise known as the next gary ablett senior from sandringham zebras with an early pick?

because they can play at sandy,but we have no extra rights to them(unless we can see how good they are early and hide them like geelong allegedly does)

lets just invite another frustrating policy for saints fans when we take all the ordinary ones & watch the first good one go elsewhere

 

[MightySaintas]

so when sandringhams recruiting does turn around,who is going to come celebrate with me after the saints finish 9th and 18th or 19th placed big melbourne club on their first rebuild in years(not richmond)selects jo blow otherwise known as the next gary ablett senior from sandringham zebras with an early pick?

because they can play at sandy,but we have no extra rights to them(unless we can see how good they are early and hide them like geelong allegedly does)

lets just invite another frustrating policy for saints fans when we take all the ordinary ones & watch the first good one go elsewhere

the whole point of it is an attempt to get better players to Sandy, not snafflr somebody on the cheap.
Maybe give it a few years and see if it gets anywhere. Surely there will be a few young budding AFL hopefuls who see us draft some spud from Sandy that will think, F me! I'm better than him. I'm off to Sandringham.

 

[Klaatu]

If the afl pushes for a standalone reserve grade what will happen to Sandy, I’d say they would struggle to survive.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Joffaboy]

What ever happened to Tarkyn O'Leary. Massive tank and trained a.lot with the squad.
Why isn't he being mentioned?

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[SaintJunior]

What ever happened to Tarkyn O'Leary. Massive tank and trained a.lot with the squad.
Why isn't he being mentioned?

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Struggled to get a kick at Sandy.

 

[Platform28]

There’s been a lot of discussion about the Sandringham rookie selection and pulling the pin on it. Let me explain why that would be a shortsighted move.

Point 1 - Ideally, St Kilda would have its own standalone VFL team, but it’s a while off.

North Melbourne went standalone in 2018 when they had remaining debt of around $1 million.

The number cruncher in charge at the Roos then was Carl Dilena, who has since become our CEO.

Our debt at last count was around $5 million so we could still be 5+ years away from being at the level North was when Dilena pulled the trigger on going standalone there.

Point 2 - Sandringham aren’t a financial powerhouse.

The VFL clubs that recruit well either use links to the AFL club as a carrot - eg come play for Carlton in the navy blue at Princes Park.

Or they have money to spend from owning pokies (Werribee, Port Melbourne and Williamstown)

Sandringham are neither of those.

Point 3 - This could give Sandringham a point of difference.

In the period from now until we go standalone - whenever that might be - we needed to do something to make Sandringham stronger.

Currently playing for Sandringham is not a very attractive proposition. It’s certainly the least appealing of the aligned sides - at least at Box Hill and Casey it looks like you’re playing for the Hawks and Demons. If you’re a VFL standard player who supports the Saints, you wouldn’t move to Sandy to play in the blue and yellow.

This guaranteed rookie initiative is the first of its kind. Though other clubs, notably Western Bulldogs and Geelong, have long drafted from within their VFL teams, no club has publicly committed to doing so before.

It might not work, but at least they are trying something.

Point 4 - If you are judging the success of this initiative on the quality of the Sandringham player being drafted by the Saints, you’re going to be disappointed.

That isn’t the point of this idea.

We don’t get any exclusive rights to a Sandringham player, so if/when a quality player does come through, they will likely be grabbed by another club at mid season, national or rookie draft.

The point is to improve the standard of the team around the St Kilda listed players at Sandringham and thus improving those on the Saints list. How beneficial would have it been for Hugo Garcia, Matteas Phillipou and Angus McLennan to have played two or three VFL finals this year?

You improve the team and in theory all the players should improve too.

Point 5 - Don’t judge the initiative on Sandringham’s 2024 recruits….or their 2025 intake.

By the time the initiative was announced on October 25 last year, any serious VFL player had long decided where he was playing in 2024. It was poorly timed.

The new recruits the Zebras picked up this year were joining the club anyway. Hugo Hall Kehan is a former Sandringham Dragon and mate of Marcus Windhager. Tarkyn O’Leary and Will Brown are also former Dragons.

Fast forward twelve months and if you’re were a decent VFL player considering moving, you most likely would have decided already. And you certainly will by the time of the rookie draft in late November.

Had you considered moving to Sandringham because of the “guaranteed” rookie selection, one look at this forum would have had you second guessing whether St Kilda will follow through with their draft promise. So I think we need a full 12 months after we draft a Sandringham player to fully judge whether it is having an effect or not.

Point 6 - We have to choose someone, so who should it be?

Sandringham best and fairest results

Blamiers 41 (17 matches)
Lowe 41 (16)
Hipwell 40 (14)
Hall-Kahan 37 (17)
Watson 37 (17)

Sandringham coaches votes (after R17 - last four rounds weren’t announced)

Hipwell 10 (polled in 2 matches)
Hall-Kehan 9 (1)
Watson 2 (1)
Vesely 2 (1)

Best players named by Sandringham in results (6 points for best, 5 for second best etc.)

Hipwell 20 (named in 5 matches)
Hall-Kahan 16 (5)
Watson 13 (4)
Lowe 8 (3)
Zagari 3 (1)
MRyan 3 (1)
Blamires 2 (1)
Macnab 2 (1)
Vesely 1 (1)

Darcy Hipwell deserves the selection the most on those numbers. Hugo Hall-Kahan would be the other option - talented enough to be drafted previously to Sydney and he fills a position we don’t have depth in (small forward).

Point 7 - The lack of quality in the Sandringham options could actually be a positive.

There will be 50+ players in the VFL that look at the player we take in the rookie draft this season and think “I’m better than Hipwell/Hall Kahan/Watson etc. If they can get drafted, so can I”.

Make no mistake, if the Saints follow through with their draft promise, this becomes the easiest way on to an AFL list. That will attract attention.

Point 8 - This is a unique draft.

Using a list space on a Sandringham rookie, when we have four father son and Academy prospects is frustrating. It’s also compounded by it being the deepest draft of recent history.

But they aren’t all like this. Last year the talk was how there would be lucky to be 55 selections in the national draft. Next year is already looking weak as well, with Vic Metro - the barometer for depth - beaten comfortably by Queensland in August at Under 17 level.

Point 9 - The rookie selection isn’t the only change they’ve made.

When the announcement was made in October 2023, St Kilda said they would appoint a VFL Liaison Officer “to streamline the processes and overlap associated”, and that Sandringham would also employ a Recruiting Manager.

Sandringham listed players were a regular part of pre season training last year also.

Point 10 - We aren’t drafting Adrian Cole, Lenny Hofmann or Elwood Peckett as a loophole.

Paul Amy, who is the best journalist by a long way when it comes to VFL, mentioned in an article last week that it was confirmed that the selection will come from the Sandringham listed players.

The only caveat with this though is I’d wager that Amy’s source for that information was from Sandringham, not St Kilda. If St Kilda was planning on reneging on the deal, Sandringham might not be aware of it yet.

Point 11 - If we pull the pin now, then what?

As mentioned in Point 1, it looks like we are stuck with this alignment for a while. If we pull the pin on this commitment now we burn the trust between the two clubs. Then what to do we do for the next 4-5 years? The quality of Sandringham listed players will only continue to decline.

 

[austinnn]

There’s been a lot of discussion about the Sandringham rookie selection and pulling the pin on it. Let me explain why that would be a shortsighted move.

Point 1 - Ideally, St Kilda would have its own standalone VFL team, but it’s a while off.

North Melbourne went standalone in 2018 when they had remaining debt of around $1 million.

The number cruncher in charge at the Roos then was Carl Dilena, who has since become our CEO.

Our debt at last count was around $5 million so we could still be 5+ years away from being at the level North was when Dilena pulled the trigger on going standalone there.

Point 2 - Sandringham aren’t a financial powerhouse.

The VFL clubs that recruit well either use links to the AFL club as a carrot - eg come play for Carlton in the navy blue at Princes Park.

Or they have money to spend from owning pokies (Werribee, Port Melbourne and Williamstown)

Sandringham are neither of those.

Point 3 - This could give Sandringham a point of difference.

In the period from now until we go standalone - whenever that might be - we needed to do something to make Sandringham stronger.

Currently playing for Sandringham is not a very attractive proposition. It’s certainly the least appealing of the aligned sides - at least at Box Hill and Casey it looks like you’re playing for the Hawks and Demons. If you’re a VFL standard player who supports the Saints, you wouldn’t move to Sandy to play in the blue and yellow.

This guaranteed rookie initiative is the first of its kind. Though other clubs, notably Western Bulldogs and Geelong, have long drafted from within their VFL teams, no club has publicly committed to doing so before.

It might not work, but at least they are trying something.

Point 4 - If you are judging the success of this initiative on the quality of the Sandringham player being drafted by the Saints, you’re going to be disappointed.

That isn’t the point of this idea.

We don’t get any exclusive rights to a Sandringham player, so if/when a quality player does come through, they will likely be grabbed by another club at mid season, national or rookie draft.

The point is to improve the standard of the team around the St Kilda listed players at Sandringham and thus improving those on the Saints list. How beneficial would have it been for Hugo Garcia, Matteas Phillipou and Angus McLennan to have played two or three VFL finals this year?

You improve the team and in theory all the players should improve too.

Point 5 - Don’t judge the initiative on Sandringham’s 2024 recruits….or their 2025 intake.

By the time the initiative was announced on October 25 last year, any serious VFL player had long decided where he was playing in 2024. It was poorly timed.

The new recruits the Zebras picked up this year were joining the club anyway. Hugo Hall Kehan is a former Sandringham Dragon and mate of Marcus Windhager. Tarkyn O’Leary and Will Brown are also former Dragons.

Fast forward twelve months and if you’re were a decent VFL player considering moving, you most likely would have decided already. And you certainly will by the time of the rookie draft in late November.

Had you considered moving to Sandringham because of the “guaranteed” rookie selection, one look at this forum would have had you second guessing whether St Kilda will follow through with their draft promise. So I think we need a full 12 months after we draft a Sandringham player to fully judge whether it is having an effect or not.

Point 6 - We have to choose someone, so who should it be?

Sandringham best and fairest results

Blamiers 41 (17 matches)
Lowe 41 (16)
Hipwell 40 (14)
Hall-Kahan 37 (17)
Watson 37 (17)

Sandringham coaches votes (after R17 - last four rounds weren’t announced)

Hipwell 10 (polled in 2 matches)
Hall-Kehan 9 (1)
Watson 2 (1)
Vesely 2 (1)

Best players named by Sandringham in results (6 points for best, 5 for second best etc.)

Hipwell 20 (named in 5 matches)
Hall-Kahan 16 (5)
Watson 13 (4)
Lowe 8 (3)
Zagari 3 (1)
MRyan 3 (1)
Blamires 2 (1)
Macnab 2 (1)
Vesely 1 (1)

Darcy Hipwell deserves the selection the most on those numbers. Hugo Hall-Kahan would be the other option - talented enough to be drafted previously to Sydney and he fills a position we don’t have depth in (small forward).

Point 7 - The lack of quality in the Sandringham options could actually be a positive.

There will be 50+ players in the VFL that look at the player we take in the rookie draft this season and think “I’m better than Hipwell/Hall Kahan/Watson etc. If they can get drafted, so can I”.

Make no mistake, if the Saints follow through with their draft promise, this becomes the easiest way on to an AFL list. That will attract attention.

Point 8 - This is a unique draft.

Using a list space on a Sandringham rookie, when we have four father son and Academy prospects is frustrating. It’s also compounded by it being the deepest draft of recent history.

But they aren’t all like this. Last year the talk was how there would be lucky to be 55 selections in the national draft. Next year is already looking weak as well, with Vic Metro - the barometer for depth - beaten comfortably by Queensland in August at Under 17 level.

Point 9 - The rookie selection isn’t the only change they’ve made.

When the announcement was made in October 2023, St Kilda said they would appoint a VFL Liaison Officer “to streamline the processes and overlap associated”, and that Sandringham would also employ a Recruiting Manager.

Sandringham listed players were a regular part of pre season training last year also.

Point 10 - We aren’t drafting Adrian Cole, Lenny Hofmann or Elwood Peckett as a loophole.

Paul Amy, who is the best journalist by a long way when it comes to VFL, mentioned in an article last week that it was confirmed that the selection will come from the Sandringham listed players.

The only caveat with this though is I’d wager that Amy’s source for that information was from Sandringham, not St Kilda. If St Kilda was planning on reneging on the deal, Sandringham might not be aware of it yet.

Point 11 - If we pull the pin now, then what?

As mentioned in Point 1, it looks like we are stuck with this alignment for a while. If we pull the pin on this commitment now we burn the trust between the two clubs. Then what to do we do for the next 4-5 years? The quality of Sandringham listed players will only continue to decline.

Mate, just want you say a massive thank you for such detailed and insightful posts, both on yhis thread and the FS thread. I can't get enough of this info so please keep posting!

 

[The Boar]

Can Sandringham chat go elsewhere?
I for one, with all due respect, DGAF

On Pixel 6a using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[busso_mick]

There’s been a lot of discussion about the Sandringham rookie selection and pulling the pin on it. Let me explain why that would be a shortsighted move.

Point 1 - Ideally, St Kilda would have its own standalone VFL team, but it’s a while off.

North Melbourne went standalone in 2018 when they had remaining debt of around $1 million.

The number cruncher in charge at the Roos then was Carl Dilena, who has since become our CEO.

Our debt at last count was around $5 million so we could still be 5+ years away from being at the level North was when Dilena pulled the trigger on going standalone there.

Point 2 - Sandringham aren’t a financial powerhouse.

The VFL clubs that recruit well either use links to the AFL club as a carrot - eg come play for Carlton in the navy blue at Princes Park.

Or they have money to spend from owning pokies (Werribee, Port Melbourne and Williamstown)

Sandringham are neither of those.

Point 3 - This could give Sandringham a point of difference.

In the period from now until we go standalone - whenever that might be - we needed to do something to make Sandringham stronger.

Currently playing for Sandringham is not a very attractive proposition. It’s certainly the least appealing of the aligned sides - at least at Box Hill and Casey it looks like you’re playing for the Hawks and Demons. If you’re a VFL standard player who supports the Saints, you wouldn’t move to Sandy to play in the blue and yellow.

This guaranteed rookie initiative is the first of its kind. Though other clubs, notably Western Bulldogs and Geelong, have long drafted from within their VFL teams, no club has publicly committed to doing so before.

It might not work, but at least they are trying something.

Point 4 - If you are judging the success of this initiative on the quality of the Sandringham player being drafted by the Saints, you’re going to be disappointed.

That isn’t the point of this idea.

We don’t get any exclusive rights to a Sandringham player, so if/when a quality player does come through, they will likely be grabbed by another club at mid season, national or rookie draft.

The point is to improve the standard of the team around the St Kilda listed players at Sandringham and thus improving those on the Saints list. How beneficial would have it been for Hugo Garcia, Matteas Phillipou and Angus McLennan to have played two or three VFL finals this year?

You improve the team and in theory all the players should improve too.

Point 5 - Don’t judge the initiative on Sandringham’s 2024 recruits….or their 2025 intake.

By the time the initiative was announced on October 25 last year, any serious VFL player had long decided where he was playing in 2024. It was poorly timed.

The new recruits the Zebras picked up this year were joining the club anyway. Hugo Hall Kehan is a former Sandringham Dragon and mate of Marcus Windhager. Tarkyn O’Leary and Will Brown are also former Dragons.

Fast forward twelve months and if you’re were a decent VFL player considering moving, you most likely would have decided already. And you certainly will by the time of the rookie draft in late November.

Had you considered moving to Sandringham because of the “guaranteed” rookie selection, one look at this forum would have had you second guessing whether St Kilda will follow through with their draft promise. So I think we need a full 12 months after we draft a Sandringham player to fully judge whether it is having an effect or not.

Point 6 - We have to choose someone, so who should it be?

Sandringham best and fairest results

Blamiers 41 (17 matches)
Lowe 41 (16)
Hipwell 40 (14)
Hall-Kahan 37 (17)
Watson 37 (17)

Sandringham coaches votes (after R17 - last four rounds weren’t announced)

Hipwell 10 (polled in 2 matches)
Hall-Kehan 9 (1)
Watson 2 (1)
Vesely 2 (1)

Best players named by Sandringham in results (6 points for best, 5 for second best etc.)

Hipwell 20 (named in 5 matches)
Hall-Kahan 16 (5)
Watson 13 (4)
Lowe 8 (3)
Zagari 3 (1)
MRyan 3 (1)
Blamires 2 (1)
Macnab 2 (1)
Vesely 1 (1)

Darcy Hipwell deserves the selection the most on those numbers. Hugo Hall-Kahan would be the other option - talented enough to be drafted previously to Sydney and he fills a position we don’t have depth in (small forward).

Point 7 - The lack of quality in the Sandringham options could actually be a positive.

There will be 50+ players in the VFL that look at the player we take in the rookie draft this season and think “I’m better than Hipwell/Hall Kahan/Watson etc. If they can get drafted, so can I”.

Make no mistake, if the Saints follow through with their draft promise, this becomes the easiest way on to an AFL list. That will attract attention.

Point 8 - This is a unique draft.

Using a list space on a Sandringham rookie, when we have four father son and Academy prospects is frustrating. It’s also compounded by it being the deepest draft of recent history.

But they aren’t all like this. Last year the talk was how there would be lucky to be 55 selections in the national draft. Next year is already looking weak as well, with Vic Metro - the barometer for depth - beaten comfortably by Queensland in August at Under 17 level.

Point 9 - The rookie selection isn’t the only change they’ve made.

When the announcement was made in October 2023, St Kilda said they would appoint a VFL Liaison Officer “to streamline the processes and overlap associated”, and that Sandringham would also employ a Recruiting Manager.

Sandringham listed players were a regular part of pre season training last year also.

Point 10 - We aren’t drafting Adrian Cole, Lenny Hofmann or Elwood Peckett as a loophole.

Paul Amy, who is the best journalist by a long way when it comes to VFL, mentioned in an article last week that it was confirmed that the selection will come from the Sandringham listed players.

The only caveat with this though is I’d wager that Amy’s source for that information was from Sandringham, not St Kilda. If St Kilda was planning on reneging on the deal, Sandringham might not be aware of it yet.

Point 11 - If we pull the pin now, then what?

As mentioned in Point 1, it looks like we are stuck with this alignment for a while. If we pull the pin on this commitment now we burn the trust between the two clubs. Then what to do we do for the next 4-5 years? The quality of Sandringham listed players will only continue to decline.

Well thought out post P28. Not sure about HHK being a small forward as he is the same height as Members @ 188cm, but he plays a lot smaller than Tim.

 

[DougalHoward]

Can Sandringham chat go elsewhere?
I for one, with all due respect, DGAF

On Pixel 6a using BigFooty.com mobile app

WE need a separate Sandringham list management thread don't we

 

[ScrappyDo]

What ever happened to Tarkyn O'Leary. Massive tank and trained a.lot with the squad.
Why isn't he being mentioned?

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

He wasn't much good.

 

[maanco]

There’s been a lot of discussion about the Sandringham rookie selection and pulling the pin on it. Let me explain why that would be a shortsighted move.

Point 1 - Ideally, St Kilda would have its own standalone VFL team, but it’s a while off.

North Melbourne went standalone in 2018 when they had remaining debt of around $1 million.

The number cruncher in charge at the Roos then was Carl Dilena, who has since become our CEO.

Our debt at last count was around $5 million so we could still be 5+ years away from being at the level North was when Dilena pulled the trigger on going standalone there.

Point 2 - Sandringham aren’t a financial powerhouse.

The VFL clubs that recruit well either use links to the AFL club as a carrot - eg come play for Carlton in the navy blue at Princes Park.

Or they have money to spend from owning pokies (Werribee, Port Melbourne and Williamstown)

Sandringham are neither of those.

Point 3 - This could give Sandringham a point of difference.

In the period from now until we go standalone - whenever that might be - we needed to do something to make Sandringham stronger.

Currently playing for Sandringham is not a very attractive proposition. It’s certainly the least appealing of the aligned sides - at least at Box Hill and Casey it looks like you’re playing for the Hawks and Demons. If you’re a VFL standard player who supports the Saints, you wouldn’t move to Sandy to play in the blue and yellow.

This guaranteed rookie initiative is the first of its kind. Though other clubs, notably Western Bulldogs and Geelong, have long drafted from within their VFL teams, no club has publicly committed to doing so before.

It might not work, but at least they are trying something.

Point 4 - If you are judging the success of this initiative on the quality of the Sandringham player being drafted by the Saints, you’re going to be disappointed.

That isn’t the point of this idea.

We don’t get any exclusive rights to a Sandringham player, so if/when a quality player does come through, they will likely be grabbed by another club at mid season, national or rookie draft.

The point is to improve the standard of the team around the St Kilda listed players at Sandringham and thus improving those on the Saints list. How beneficial would have it been for Hugo Garcia, Matteas Phillipou and Angus McLennan to have played two or three VFL finals this year?

You improve the team and in theory all the players should improve too.

Point 5 - Don’t judge the initiative on Sandringham’s 2024 recruits….or their 2025 intake.

By the time the initiative was announced on October 25 last year, any serious VFL player had long decided where he was playing in 2024. It was poorly timed.

The new recruits the Zebras picked up this year were joining the club anyway. Hugo Hall Kehan is a former Sandringham Dragon and mate of Marcus Windhager. Tarkyn O’Leary and Will Brown are also former Dragons.

Fast forward twelve months and if you’re were a decent VFL player considering moving, you most likely would have decided already. And you certainly will by the time of the rookie draft in late November.

Had you considered moving to Sandringham because of the “guaranteed” rookie selection, one look at this forum would have had you second guessing whether St Kilda will follow through with their draft promise. So I think we need a full 12 months after we draft a Sandringham player to fully judge whether it is having an effect or not.

Point 6 - We have to choose someone, so who should it be?

Sandringham best and fairest results

Blamiers 41 (17 matches)
Lowe 41 (16)
Hipwell 40 (14)
Hall-Kahan 37 (17)
Watson 37 (17)

Sandringham coaches votes (after R17 - last four rounds weren’t announced)

Hipwell 10 (polled in 2 matches)
Hall-Kehan 9 (1)
Watson 2 (1)
Vesely 2 (1)

Best players named by Sandringham in results (6 points for best, 5 for second best etc.)

Hipwell 20 (named in 5 matches)
Hall-Kahan 16 (5)
Watson 13 (4)
Lowe 8 (3)
Zagari 3 (1)
MRyan 3 (1)
Blamires 2 (1)
Macnab 2 (1)
Vesely 1 (1)

Darcy Hipwell deserves the selection the most on those numbers. Hugo Hall-Kahan would be the other option - talented enough to be drafted previously to Sydney and he fills a position we don’t have depth in (small forward).

Point 7 - The lack of quality in the Sandringham options could actually be a positive.

There will be 50+ players in the VFL that look at the player we take in the rookie draft this season and think “I’m better than Hipwell/Hall Kahan/Watson etc. If they can get drafted, so can I”.

Make no mistake, if the Saints follow through with their draft promise, this becomes the easiest way on to an AFL list. That will attract attention.

Point 8 - This is a unique draft.

Using a list space on a Sandringham rookie, when we have four father son and Academy prospects is frustrating. It’s also compounded by it being the deepest draft of recent history.

But they aren’t all like this. Last year the talk was how there would be lucky to be 55 selections in the national draft. Next year is already looking weak as well, with Vic Metro - the barometer for depth - beaten comfortably by Queensland in August at Under 17 level.

Point 9 - The rookie selection isn’t the only change they’ve made.

When the announcement was made in October 2023, St Kilda said they would appoint a VFL Liaison Officer “to streamline the processes and overlap associated”, and that Sandringham would also employ a Recruiting Manager.

Sandringham listed players were a regular part of pre season training last year also.

Point 10 - We aren’t drafting Adrian Cole, Lenny Hofmann or Elwood Peckett as a loophole.

Paul Amy, who is the best journalist by a long way when it comes to VFL, mentioned in an article last week that it was confirmed that the selection will come from the Sandringham listed players.

The only caveat with this though is I’d wager that Amy’s source for that information was from Sandringham, not St Kilda. If St Kilda was planning on reneging on the deal, Sandringham might not be aware of it yet.

Point 11 - If we pull the pin now, then what?

As mentioned in Point 1, it looks like we are stuck with this alignment for a while. If we pull the pin on this commitment now we burn the trust between the two clubs. Then what to do we do for the next 4-5 years? The quality of Sandringham listed players will only continue to decline.

This should go in the media thread, better article than most newspapers

 

[Dr Spaceman]

There’s been a lot of discussion about the Sandringham rookie selection and pulling the pin on it. Let me explain why that would be a shortsighted move.

Point 1 - Ideally, St Kilda would have its own standalone VFL team, but it’s a while off.

North Melbourne went standalone in 2018 when they had remaining debt of around $1 million.

The number cruncher in charge at the Roos then was Carl Dilena, who has since become our CEO.

Our debt at last count was around $5 million so we could still be 5+ years away from being at the level North was when Dilena pulled the trigger on going standalone there.

Point 2 - Sandringham aren’t a financial powerhouse.

The VFL clubs that recruit well either use links to the AFL club as a carrot - eg come play for Carlton in the navy blue at Princes Park.

Or they have money to spend from owning pokies (Werribee, Port Melbourne and Williamstown)

Sandringham are neither of those.

Point 3 - This could give Sandringham a point of difference.

In the period from now until we go standalone - whenever that might be - we needed to do something to make Sandringham stronger.

Currently playing for Sandringham is not a very attractive proposition. It’s certainly the least appealing of the aligned sides - at least at Box Hill and Casey it looks like you’re playing for the Hawks and Demons. If you’re a VFL standard player who supports the Saints, you wouldn’t move to Sandy to play in the blue and yellow.

This guaranteed rookie initiative is the first of its kind. Though other clubs, notably Western Bulldogs and Geelong, have long drafted from within their VFL teams, no club has publicly committed to doing so before.

It might not work, but at least they are trying something.

Point 4 - If you are judging the success of this initiative on the quality of the Sandringham player being drafted by the Saints, you’re going to be disappointed.

That isn’t the point of this idea.

We don’t get any exclusive rights to a Sandringham player, so if/when a quality player does come through, they will likely be grabbed by another club at mid season, national or rookie draft.

The point is to improve the standard of the team around the St Kilda listed players at Sandringham and thus improving those on the Saints list. How beneficial would have it been for Hugo Garcia, Matteas Phillipou and Angus McLennan to have played two or three VFL finals this year?

You improve the team and in theory all the players should improve too.

Point 5 - Don’t judge the initiative on Sandringham’s 2024 recruits….or their 2025 intake.

By the time the initiative was announced on October 25 last year, any serious VFL player had long decided where he was playing in 2024. It was poorly timed.

The new recruits the Zebras picked up this year were joining the club anyway. Hugo Hall Kehan is a former Sandringham Dragon and mate of Marcus Windhager. Tarkyn O’Leary and Will Brown are also former Dragons.

Fast forward twelve months and if you’re were a decent VFL player considering moving, you most likely would have decided already. And you certainly will by the time of the rookie draft in late November.

Had you considered moving to Sandringham because of the “guaranteed” rookie selection, one look at this forum would have had you second guessing whether St Kilda will follow through with their draft promise. So I think we need a full 12 months after we draft a Sandringham player to fully judge whether it is having an effect or not.

Point 6 - We have to choose someone, so who should it be?

Sandringham best and fairest results

Blamiers 41 (17 matches)
Lowe 41 (16)
Hipwell 40 (14)
Hall-Kahan 37 (17)
Watson 37 (17)

Sandringham coaches votes (after R17 - last four rounds weren’t announced)

Hipwell 10 (polled in 2 matches)
Hall-Kehan 9 (1)
Watson 2 (1)
Vesely 2 (1)

Best players named by Sandringham in results (6 points for best, 5 for second best etc.)

Hipwell 20 (named in 5 matches)
Hall-Kahan 16 (5)
Watson 13 (4)
Lowe 8 (3)
Zagari 3 (1)
MRyan 3 (1)
Blamires 2 (1)
Macnab 2 (1)
Vesely 1 (1)

Darcy Hipwell deserves the selection the most on those numbers. Hugo Hall-Kahan would be the other option - talented enough to be drafted previously to Sydney and he fills a position we don’t have depth in (small forward).

Point 7 - The lack of quality in the Sandringham options could actually be a positive.

There will be 50+ players in the VFL that look at the player we take in the rookie draft this season and think “I’m better than Hipwell/Hall Kahan/Watson etc. If they can get drafted, so can I”.

Make no mistake, if the Saints follow through with their draft promise, this becomes the easiest way on to an AFL list. That will attract attention.

Point 8 - This is a unique draft.

Using a list space on a Sandringham rookie, when we have four father son and Academy prospects is frustrating. It’s also compounded by it being the deepest draft of recent history.

But they aren’t all like this. Last year the talk was how there would be lucky to be 55 selections in the national draft. Next year is already looking weak as well, with Vic Metro - the barometer for depth - beaten comfortably by Queensland in August at Under 17 level.

Point 9 - The rookie selection isn’t the only change they’ve made.

When the announcement was made in October 2023, St Kilda said they would appoint a VFL Liaison Officer “to streamline the processes and overlap associated”, and that Sandringham would also employ a Recruiting Manager.

Sandringham listed players were a regular part of pre season training last year also.

Point 10 - We aren’t drafting Adrian Cole, Lenny Hofmann or Elwood Peckett as a loophole.

Paul Amy, who is the best journalist by a long way when it comes to VFL, mentioned in an article last week that it was confirmed that the selection will come from the Sandringham listed players.

The only caveat with this though is I’d wager that Amy’s source for that information was from Sandringham, not St Kilda. If St Kilda was planning on reneging on the deal, Sandringham might not be aware of it yet.

Point 11 - If we pull the pin now, then what?

As mentioned in Point 1, it looks like we are stuck with this alignment for a while. If we pull the pin on this commitment now we burn the trust between the two clubs. Then what to do we do for the next 4-5 years? The quality of Sandringham listed players will only continue to decline.

 

[Pou Steele]

Question: if we pass on one of our later draft picks hoping for one of our NGAs to slide through to the rookie draft, and a bid comes in after that, can we then match that bid with our next pick (assuming bid is post pick 40)?

E.g. we haven’t delisted Hotton by draft night and decide to pass on one of our picks intending to give him another year. But on the night Peckett gets bid on late when we’d been planning to rookie him. Could we then match the bid knowing that we’d have to then delist Hotton to make space on the senior list?

 

[ScrappyDo]

Question: if we pass on one of our later draft picks hoping for one of our NGAs to slide through to the rookie draft, and a bid comes in after that, can we then match that bid with our next pick (assuming bid is post pick 40)?

E.g. we haven’t delisted Hotton by draft night and decide to pass on one of our picks intending to give him another year. But on the night Peckett gets bid on late when we’d been planning to rookie him. Could we then match the bid knowing that we’d have to then delist Hotton to make space on the senior list?

I don't believe so. Need to clear your list before the draft.

 

[akaifu]

What ever happened to Tarkyn O'Leary. Massive tank and trained a.lot with the squad.
Why isn't he being mentioned?

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

One of those types who is way too small to succeed at senior level. Got bullied in the VFL

 

[Mindtraveller]

Question: if we pass on one of our later draft picks hoping for one of our NGAs to slide through to the rookie draft, and a bid comes in after that, can we then match that bid with our next pick (assuming bid is post pick 40)?

E.g. we haven’t delisted Hotton by draft night and decide to pass on one of our picks intending to give him another year. But on the night Peckett gets bid on late when we’d been planning to rookie him. Could we then match the bid knowing that we’d have to then delist Hotton to make space on the senior list?

Did we delist McKenzie before start night last year? I believe he only missed out on a contract due to Shoey being available