Toast Collingwood - the fastest rebuild ever

[The Slitherin' Snake]

Didn't slow down the doom sayers pre-season. wishful thinking I suppose. Now they all "knew the Pies would bounce back" with their list. lol. Ten years in the wilderness was their claim 4mths ago.

I reckon that was more to do with the off field than the on field situation and how that might impact results. 2020 trade period was a disaster and then a new coach coming in creates a lot of uncertainty. but credit to the Pies players, they've been great this year

 

[WilloTree]

Maybe its a list transition. We know the senior players wont be there at the next tilt. Feel like we are blooding the kids at the right time and where needed and rotating them in and out

A re-stump.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Can everyone please stop pretending Collingwood were one of the legit bottom teams in 2021 ???

It's a myth. I'm sick of hearing the hyperbole surrounding their "resurrection" this year under McRae
People have goldfish memories. Especially flogs like David King who talk this shiit up.

The Pies were a perennial flag contender who self-destructed in 2021 and tanked their season.
They are back on track in 2022. A case of "as you were" with the embarrassment of 2021 put behind them.

Wouldn’t even say we tanked our season. We went 1-5 in games under two goals last year and didn’t lose a game by over five goals until Round 22. Competitive every week and I think the disillusionment Pies fans had was with the gaping hole outside a handful in our list of quality players between 23-28 which meant we expected to see more time down the bottom and needed to replenish with draft picks.

Guys like Ginnivan, Henry, Daicos and McCreery have played to a higher standard than we probably expected immediately and even our VFL rotation guys like Bianco have come in and played at a reasonable level given the competition for spots. Pair that and the relatively good run we’ve had with injury for the first time in about five years and you create a three goal improvement that means that all those marginal losses have become marginal wins.

Our percentage last year was not dissimilar to Freo and the Blues and we’ve played basically at their level this year too.

Whether it’s sustainable when our older guys go remains to be seen. They certainly aren’t carrying our team like everyone seems to want to suggest but you still need to have the soldiers capable of replacing them on the list and that’s an unknown quantity that we’ll once again be relying on going to the draft or looking at cheap supplementation (Kreuger, Lipinski) for most likely. It will be interesting.

Just hope we don’t make a play for McStay because that would be a complete and utter waste.

 

[ChristianBoy]

Maybe its a list transition. We know the senior players wont be there at the next tilt. Feel like we are blooding the kids at the right time and where needed and rotating them in and out

Again who are these kids your talking about? Serious question.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Again who are these kids your talking about? Serious question.

N Daicos, Ginnivan, McInnes, Macrae, Poulter, Begg, Chugg, Ruscoe, McCreery, Bianco, Quaynor, Murphy, T Brown and Kreuger have all featured for us this year and are 22 year or under. Five of that batch, potentially six are firmly best 22, and I’d suggested a further three plus the yet to debut Dean are very likely to eventually be best 22.

It’s a decent but not groundbreaking blend. Coming the other side four of our best 22 are 30+ and Jamie Elliott is knocking on the door at age 29, but the only two in that bracket that I’d suggest are playing essential structural cogs are probably Elliott and Howe. Obviously you take someone of Pendlebury’s talents over not having him but structurally his role isn’t as integral as the other two who I suggest we do play around.

 

[ChristianBoy]

N Daicos, Ginnivan, McInnes, Macrae, Poulter, Begg, Chugg, Ruscoe, McCreery, Bianco, Quaynor, Murphy, T Brown and Kreuger have all featured for us this year and are 22 year or under. Five of that batch, potentially six are firmly best 22, and I’d suggested a further three plus the yet to debut Dean are very likely to eventually be best 22.

It’s a decent but not groundbreaking blend. Coming the other side four of our best 22 are 30+ and Jamie Elliott is knocking on the door at age 29, but the only two in that bracket that I’d suggest are playing essential structural cogs are probably Elliott and Howe. Obviously you take someone of Pendlebury’s talents over not having him but structurally his role isn’t as integral as the other two who I suggest we do play around.

Quaynor Daicos and now Murphy are the only ones that have showed they'll play long term roles. Other than that the list looks very hit and miss.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

What did they rebuild? When did it start?
Done well to make the most of their opportunities this year, but they're relying heavily on the older players. 9 players in the side that could only beat Essendon after the siren who played in the 2018 GF, and 19 players on the list from the 2018 list. Given that most teams turn over a minimum of 3-4 players each year, they should have at least 12-16 players different from then anyway.
Barely scraping over the line against bottom 6 sides and got Blues without a few key players and an early in-game injury. Dees without bookends in May and McDonald and Freo in the wet trying to play dry weather footy. And got a good draw from finishing 17th.
Playing in 9 games in one season that are decided by less than 2 goals is an oddity. Winning 8 of those is even stranger and massively against the odds.
Let's see how they go next year with a tougher draw, some of that luck in 50/50 games not likely to go their way, and some of their older players possibly retiring or dropping off in form.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Quaynor Daicos and now Murphy are the only ones that have showed they'll play long term roles. Other than that the list looks very hit and miss.

I think you’re being incredibly harsh on Ginnivan and McCreery who I think are already firmly entrenched in the 22, but opposition fans have a chip on their shoulder with Ginnivan and what McCreery brings to our forwardline is underappreciated if you don’t watch him every week. I also left Henry off my list as an oversight, he’d be right on the brink of best 22 too.

What I’m contending with is you seem to want to be dismissive of this youth but it’s tracking exactly as you’d expect it to, if not ahead of where you’d expect it to.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

What did they rebuild? When did it start?
Done well to make the most of their opportunities this year, but they're relying heavily on the older players. 9 players in the side that could only beat Essendon after the siren who played in the 2018 GF, and 19 players on the list from the 2018 list. Given that most teams turn over a minimum of 3-4 players each year, they should have at least 12-16 players different from then anyway.
Barely scraping over the line against bottom 6 sides and got Blues without a few key players and an early in-game injury. Dees without bookends in May and McDonald and Freo in the wet trying to play dry weather footy. And got a good draw from finishing 17th.
Playing in 9 games in one season that are decided by less than 2 goals is an oddity. Winning 8 of those is even stranger and massively against the odds.
Let's see how they go next year with a tougher draw, some of that luck in 50/50 games not likely to go their way, and some of their older players possibly retiring or dropping off in form.

You may not be familiar with how rebuilds are meant to work given your club’s inability to even make preliminary final weekend despite multiple “rebuilds” and routine bottoming out over the past twenty years.

I’d suggest thirteen best 22 players having been moved on in the space of four years is absolutely replenishing the side. Even if I graciously add Grundy and De Goey back for you half a side turned around in the space of four years is still significant churn. It’s not sweeping a broom through everything with a heartbeat but if that’s how you construct a rebuild you’ll end up looking and playing like… well Carlton have over the last two decades.

 

[ChristianBoy]

I think you’re being incredibly harsh on Ginnivan and McCreery who I think are already firmly entrenched in the 22, but opposition fans have a chip on their shoulder with Ginnivan and what McCreery brings to our forwardline is underappreciated if you don’t watch him every week. I also left Henry off my list as an oversight, he’d be right on the brink of best 22 too.

What I’m contending with is you seem to want to be dismissive of this youth but it’s tracking exactly as you’d expect it to, if not ahead of where you’d expect it to.

Henry yes but the other two seem very limited.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Henry yes but the other two seem very limited.

The other two have limitations, yes, but unless you’re constructing state of origin grade 22s all sides have players like that. There isn’t a side in the competition that wouldn’t have Ginnivan in their best 22. “Very limited” is quite hyperbolized.

 

[ChristianBoy]

The other two have limitations, yes, but unless you’re constructing state of origin grade 22s all sides have players like that. There isn’t a side in the competition that wouldn’t have Ginnivan in their best 22. “Very limited” is quite hyperbolized.

The issue I see with Collingwoods list is that that other than perhaps Daicos there is no mid field talent in the younger players.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

You may not be familiar with how rebuilds are meant to work given your club’s inability to even make preliminary final weekend despite multiple “rebuilds” and routine bottoming out over the past twenty years.

I’d suggest thirteen best 22 players having been moved on in the space of four years is absolutely replenishing the side. Even if I graciously add Grundy and De Goey back for you half a side turned around in the space of four years is still significant churn. It’s not sweeping a broom through everything with a heartbeat but if that’s how you construct a rebuild you’ll end up looking and playing like… well Carlton have over the last two decades.

Any chance of discussing the Pies without bringing the other poster's side into it? It has nothing to do with the conversation.
I'm not having a crack, just dealing in facts. You guys have done well to get where you are, but there are signs that you aren't quite a regular top 8 side and that this is more likely a blip on the radar. Only time will tell that, but it's too early to say that this is now the expected standard.
Scraping over the line against bottom sides isn't a sustainable way to play. A team on a 9 game streak, sitting in 4th place, should be putting teams like that away by 6+ goals.
The end of next year will be a better judgement.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to address your point about half the side turned around.
That's really just standard list management really. Unless a side is entrenched in a premiership window, most sides would come close to turning over 16-20 listed players and 8-10 best 22 over 4 years.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Any chance of discussing the Pies without bringing the other poster's side into it? It has nothing to do with the conversation.
I'm not having a crack, just dealing in facts. You guys have done well to get where you are, but there are signs that you aren't quite a regular top 8 side and that this is more likely a blip on the radar. Only time will tell that, but it's too early to say that this is now the expected standard.
Scraping over the line against bottom sides isn't a sustainable way to play. A team on a 9 game streak, sitting in 4th place, should be putting teams like that away by 6+ goals.
The end of next year will be a better judgement.

You brought that judgement against Carlton yourself by discounting the win because Weitering was injured (not to mention your rubbish about Melbourne and Freo’s performance - I was unaware Melbourne made a conscious decision at half time to start playing dry weather football in the wet, for instance). In any case, I’m contending with your claim that what we’ve done isn’t rebuilding and used Carlton’s floundering attempts over the past two decades as a counterpoint.

Percentage is a great indication of the strength of a team, and as I’ve already alluded to in a previous post going 1-5 to 8-1 in 12 point games has got us a long way to inflating our position on the ladder, sure. But in the last two seasons we’ve lost three games total by over five goals which indicates that we have a proven record of being able to contend with every side in the competition. The sides that have presented our biggest thorns in that period are Geelong, Brisbane and the Western Bulldogs, and even then this year we’ve put in very competitive performances against the former two. To me that record indicates we’re comfortably top eight quality which seems to be everyone’s contention against our list rejuvenation strategy.

Edit: will retract the Melbourne wet weather statement, I misread the post. Don’t know that bookends make a huge difference in the conditions we played in, we burned them with pace that day and our ball movement that day.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

The issue I see with Collingwoods list is that that other than perhaps Daicos there is no mid field talent in the younger players.

Macrae, Poulter and McInnes are no doubt envisaged as the heir apparent in that regard but there’s not an indication they’ll ever make the grade so that point is absolutely fair enough.

I did omit J Daicos and Lipinski from my list as 23 year olds because to me at that point I don’t really consider players youth so much as they’re players with scope for improvement that should be performing but they’d supplement our young midfield mix too. No standout quality players outside Nick though, the remainder have ceilings as B type players but I’m sure the club are strategising around how to rectify that. A Taranto type would change the look of that mix for sure although I understand that when you start speculating on trade targets you’re living in fantasy land instead of the real world.

 

[augie]

Can we all agree it is not the fastest rebuild ever? Can we also all agree that it has been a very impressive year from a team that no-one rated?

It is simply wrong to say that we are being propped up by experienced players. Pendles, while he has been incredibly important from a leadership perspective, is having a below average year (admittedly by his lofty standards) - at the bottom end in just about every stat. Sidebbottom's stats are at their lowest level since his first year. Howe is at his average at best.

It is also wrong to say the improvement is down to youth, although the best first year player in any sport in history has had a substantial impact. The improvement is down to having the best coaching group in the competition and an environment that is a substantial uplift on last year.

For those who predict a fall next year, you might be right. Particularly if we keep the streak going and get to Top 4, it will be hard to replicate this. But there is an inherent inconsistency in the arguments that are being raised. We only got where we have because we've had a soft draw (despite us having a very handy record against top 8 sides) and last year was just an aberration, but we will drop next year in what, another aberration?

It is undeniable Carlton has a better list than Collingwood. Their forward line is better and their midfield is better. But they don't have our coaching group and they don't have our culture. I know which one I'd prefer.

 

[ChristianBoy]

Can we all agree it is not the fastest rebuild ever? Can we also all agree that it has been a very impressive year from a team that no-one rated?

It is simply wrong to say that we are being propped up by experienced players. Pendles, while he has been incredibly important from a leadership perspective, is having a below average year (admittedly by his lofty standards) - at the bottom end in just about every stat. Sidebbottom's stats are at their lowest level since his first year. Howe is at his average at best.

It is also wrong to say the improvement is down to youth, although the best first year player in any sport in history has had a substantial impact. The improvement is down to having the best coaching group in the competition and an environment that is a substantial uplift on last year.

For those who predict a fall next year, you might be right. Particularly if we keep the streak going and get to Top 4, it will be hard to replicate this. But there is an inherent inconsistency in the arguments that are being raised. We only got where we have because we've had a soft draw (despite us having a very handy record against top 8 sides) and last year was just an aberration, but we will drop next year in what, another aberration?

It is undeniable Carlton has a better list than Collingwood. Their forward line is better and their midfield is better. But they don't have our coaching group and they don't have our culture. I know which one I'd prefer.

The group is being carried by a large group of 28/9 plus year old players.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

The group is being carried by a large group of 28/9 plus year old players.

Simply not true and I’ve already stepped through that but sure mate

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

It is undeniable Carlton has a better list than Collingwood. Their forward line is better and their midfield is better. But they don't have our coaching group and they don't have our culture. I know which one I'd prefer.

Collingwood culture. Is that a piss take?

 

[OniAu]

The group is being carried by a large group of 28/9 plus year old players.

Isnt that the idea of older players , to take more of the work load

Its not a large group either

 

[OniAu]

Carlton supporters seem funnily threatened by this thread

 

[ChristianBoy]

Isnt that the idea of older players , to take more of the work load

Its not a large group either

Howe
Cox
Pendles
Elliot
Sidebottom
Crisp
Adams
Will Hoskin Elliot
Miocheck

Thats 9 players that will turn 29 or older before the end of the season.

The older players should be playing lesser roles and not relied upon.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Carlton supporters seem funnily threatened by this thread

Most Carlton supporter feel threatened if you look at them.

Go look at the Carlton threads, biggest sooks on this site by far.

 

[OniAu]

Howe
Cox
Pendles
Elliot
Sidebottom
Crisp
Adams
Will Hoskin Elliot
Miocheck

Thats 9 players that will turn 29 or older before the end of the season.

Elliott - Played 2 thirds of a season due to injury, hardly carrying
Cox - Is doing what he is there for , had a great season. Yet the media and BF posters said he was done now hes carrying ?
Pendles - generational talent , something Carlton havent got on their list. Would be their best player. Has been moved to HBF to transition life after pendles
Howe - has been great as usual, wouldnt say carrying but playing his role
Crisp - Forms been down in the past five weeks, funnily enough in our streak, plenty of years left in him also
Adams - Has been deplorable , turnover merchant , if you think he is carrying you really have no idea about football
Hoskin - Hasnt kicked a ball since 2019 , would be lucky to be best 22 by mid next year. Again see Tay adams , you have no idea about football
Mihocek - started his career late , will be around for a few more years yet. Defintely carrying

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Carlton supporters seem funnily threatened by this thread

If you keep mentioning the Blues they will come.