Review Good/Bad vs Brisbane, R22 2023

[thebirdman 24]

Good: Harry Schoenberg better not be dropped again - showing signs of becoming a really good two-way midfielder. His defensive work since coming back in has been impressive and I’ve noticed he’s quite clever with his running patterns as well, starting to put himself in the right positions for repeat possessions within a chain.

Not too long ago, most had written him off.

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[Jeffcrowe]

I don’t think so, Collingwood are dominant and are gonna be damn hard to beat. They just flicked a switch against Geelong during the 2nd quarter and never looked back, even without their best player.

Disagree , don’t reckon there is any dominant favourite

Pies have had 3 key forwards get hold of them in last few weeks for big bags

Geelong scraped home against ports back up team the week before at home so they’re no good thing

It was pies fanatical pressure that won game and that’s about it

Still they’re in mix with about 3-4 other teams inc Carlton

 

[NSolis]

Let's say we re-sign Crouch who is currently 28, and we also have Laird contracted for another 3 seasons. Both would realistically play full time midfield until they retire in 3 to 4 years or more.

Do you think it's acceptable for Schoenberg to be waiting until his 8th season to get a proper full time run in there? Which would equate to 7 seasons for Pedlar and 6 for Rachele/Soligo?

Are we expecting to play these guys on the wing and in pockets until their mid 20s where suddenly they'll be able to become elite midfielders despite not being developed in that position?

Short answer to this very exaggerated timeline is obviously no. Hard calls will need to be made in the coming seasons. That'll have to happen in two ways - we will have to figure out who is actually good enough to push solid performers out of midfield roles, and we will have to decide who gives up midfield minutes to create space for those coming through. It's a moot point for now because our two most promising midfield prospects in Rachele and Pedlar are plainly not ready for full-time midfield roles yet, as we've seen in the second half of the year where their performances have fallen away badly. Rachele in particular. But we will need to see the younger midfield group getting more opportunities next year and building from there.

To the broader point, I don't think you need a huge amount of CBAs to develop as a capable midfielder. There's plenty of good examples of players who did not play as full-time midfielders in their first few seasons and turned out to be great players in that role after developing in the forward line or across half-back. I think around 22-23 is a good target for a full-time midfield role, though obviously it varies by player and some are ready sooner than others. Schoenberg would be in that range next season, Rachele and Peldar maybe the year after. But we should be giving them opportunities and seeing how they are performing and how they are standing up to the workload, which I think we are doing with the younger guys.

 

[The Smith Revolution]

Do you propose they stop attempting shots for goal?

It's just a pet hate of mine. I'm not going to argue about it. Good sides kick goals when it matters. It ain't no simpler than that.

 

[Geoffa32]

Let's say we re-sign Crouch who is currently 28, and we also have Laird contracted for another 3 seasons. Both would realistically play full time midfield until they retire in 3 to 4 years or more.

Do you think it's acceptable for Schoenberg to be waiting until his 8th season to get a proper full time run in there? Which would equate to 7 seasons for Pedlar and 6 for Rachele/Soligo?

Are we expecting to play these guys on the wing and in pockets until their mid 20s where suddenly they'll be able to become elite midfielders despite not being developed in that position?

Our midfield rotation next year needs to be Laird Dawson Pedlar Schoenberg Rachele Soglio and hopefully our 2023 first rounder.

Rankine and McAdam provide stoppage support, ie what Murphy does.


It probably is best in long term to lose Crouch. He is a better mid than Laird. But we are stuck with Laird's contract. Playing both is no good long term.


In an ideal world Sloane retires.

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[Scorpus]

Short answer to this very exaggerated timeline is obviously no. Hard calls will need to be made in the coming seasons. That'll have to happen in two ways - we will have to figure out who is actually good enough to push solid performers out of midfield roles, and we will have to decide who gives up midfield minutes to create space for those coming through. It's a moot point for now because our two most promising midfield prospects in Rachele and Pedlar are plainly not ready for full-time midfield roles yet, as we've seen in the second half of the year where their performances have fallen away badly. Rachele in particular. But we will need to see the younger midfield group getting more opportunities next year and building from there.

To the broader point, I don't think you need a huge amount of CBAs to develop as a capable midfielder. There's plenty of good examples of players who did not play as full-time midfielders in their first few seasons and turned out to be great players in that role after developing in the forward line or across half-back. I think around 22-23 is a good target for a full-time midfield role, though obviously it varies by player and some are ready sooner than others. Schoenberg would be in that range next season, Rachele and Peldar maybe the year after. But we should be giving them opportunities and seeing how they are performing and how they are standing up to the workload, which I think we are doing with the younger

I don't think the timeline is especially exaggerated, it has both Laird and Crouch playing primary midfield minutes into their early 30s which isn't outlandish especially given Laird's existing contract.

My concern is we waste the next 3 years stuffing around with a midfield that isn't good enough only to have our premiership window slip away. The year after Laird's contract expires, so 2027, Dawson will be 30.

We need to be finding out who the next generation of midfielders are now. Schoenberg will be in his 5th season next year. That's plenty of time to get a main role. There's also plenty of league examples of a 3rd year mid being able to hold down a main role, which would be Rachele/Soligo as soon as next year

 

[Geoffa32]

Laird had 25 CBAs with 2 clearances. Zero from a CBA.

Crouch 23 CBAs with 9 clearances.


Laird's 34 possessions were useless. Especially the two he could have won the game with.





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[Faaarrk]

You do realise that the commentators have been talking up our ball movement for weeks or do you watch with sound down ?

We lead comp in possession chains from d50 to I50 scores

Re last night Fog just had one of those nights where he got his hands on the ball but dropped marks , multiple times starting in first quarter when he and Soligo dropped uncontested marks I50

No our delivery isn’t poor overall it’s one of the best in comp proven by stats and spoken about by commentators

At one stage in 1st quarter we were going at 90% and just moving ball beautifully without it touching the deck

Last night was not one of them. The commentators even mentioned if we took the time for one more handball before entering the forward 50 we would find better options and hit them lace out. Instead we reverted back to bombing it in there, after the first quarter.

 

[Scorpus]

Laird had 25 CBAs with 2 clearances. Zero from a CBA.

Crouch 23 CBAs with 9 clearances.


Laird's 34 possessions were useless. Especially the two he could have won the game with.





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Our best side has one of Laird and Crouch, and one of Murphy and Keays, but not both

 

[NSolis]

I don't think the timeline is especially exaggerated, it has both Laird and Crouch playing primary midfield minutes into their early 30s which isn't outlandish especially given Laird's existing contract.

My concern is we waste the next 3 years stuffing around with a midfield that isn't good enough only to have our premiership window slip away. The year after Laird's contract expires, so 2027, Dawson will be 30

I do think Dawson, Crouch and Laird is a pretty effective midfield, they've been good the last three weeks against good opposition. Crouch in particular looks much better with outside quality around him, and we basically won the midfield battles against two top four sides in the last month. If we do manage to retain Crouch I think that should be the primary rotation next year with the rest of the midfield opportunities going to whoever is performing best out of the Rachele/Pedlar/Schoenberg/Soligo group, though obviously that needs to be responsive to form and performance.

I think you're just extrapolating way into the future here and imagining a combination of no success and no changes, which I think is extremely unrealistic. If we play with Dawson/Crouch/Laird as our primary midfield combo for next year and we finish top four, well then great. On the other hand if we are 5-7 at the bye I'd expect there to be changes as you'd assume that group would be underperforming. For now we have a midfield group that is doing pretty well and for whom retirement is not imminent, and we have some young players coming through who look promising in the role. That's a good mix. What we do from here should depend on how the team is performing.

 

[The Perfect Stranger]

Some really encouraging signs this year but we will still most likely only finish bottom 7 with 2 huge issues. The first being our top 3 players will be 34, 30 and 27 in 2024 and the second, we haven't seen a future, fulltime, A grade young midfielder emerge.

When Tex retires, most likely at the end of 2024, its going to leave a massive hole in this team.

 

[The Perfect Stranger]

Harry has become a much more mature player. Is doing some really team orientated play and some tough team things. This is the Harry we need to have

Agreed. His recent form has been a nice surprise. Showing glimpses of Dangerfield like explosiveness.

 

[Geoffa32]

Our best side has one of Laird and Crouch, and one of Murphy and Keays, but not both

Keays is quite a good HF. Finally playing his natural role.


Murphy is not really good at anything. He has been an ok stop gap stoppage mid. But the time has come where more talented players play instead of him.



Who are they dropping for Rankine this week? It should be Murphy and Rachele a full game. Sloane sub, although I would prefer McHenry, he was good in sub.

Murphy will still play and they will probably drop Nankervis.




Our best team this week for a vital win is Murphy out, Rankine in. Rachele full game. Sloane dropped and McHenry sub.

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[The Perfect Stranger]

We all know this club will make the ridiculous decision to keep Sloane and get rid of Crouch.

 

[Scorpus]

I do think Dawson, Crouch and Laird is a pretty effective midfield, they've been good the last three weeks against good opposition. Crouch in particular looks much better with outside quality around him, and we basically won the midfield battles against two top four sides in the last month. If we do manage to retain Crouch I think that should be the primary rotation next year with the rest of the midfield opportunities going to whoever is performing best out of the Rachele/Pedlar/Schoenberg/Soligo group, though obviously that needs to be responsive to form and performance.

I think you're just extrapolating way into the future here and imagining a combination of no success and no changes, which I think is extremely unrealistic. If we play with Dawson/Crouch/Laird as our primary midfield combo for next year and we finish top four, well then great. On the other hand if we are 5-7 at the bye I'd expect there to be changes as you'd assume that group would be underperforming. For now we have a midfield group that is doing pretty well and for whom retirement is not imminent, and we have some young players coming through who look promising in the role. That's a good mix. What we do from here should depend on how the team is performing.

Well sure we should be changing things up under those circumstances, but we haven't shown any indication of reducing experience when we start losing. We do the opposite. If our starting point is Dawson/Laird/Crouch I think it's unlikely we'd switch to youth half way through the season based on what we've done so far.

I think it also ignores how well we were playing earlier in the season when we gave more midfield time to guys like Rachele and I'd argue we actually performed better then than we are now

 

[NSolis]

Well sure we should be changing things up under those circumstances, but we haven't shown any indication of reducing experience when we start losing. We do the opposite. If our starting point is Dawson/Laird/Crouch I think it's unlikely we'd switch to youth half way through the season based on what we've done so far.

I think it also ignores how well we were playing earlier in the season when we gave more midfield time to guys like Rachele and I'd argue we actually performed better then than we are now

I think part of the difference of opinion here is that I think Rachele was given less midfield rotations after the first couple of months of the year because he wasn't backing up well between games and was struggling with the workload. That's what the club has said and I think it is true. If you think they are lying obviously you'll take a different view.

In the first 7 games of the year he was taking at least 20% of centre bounces and played basically full-time mid in three games, and was averaging 19.4 disposals and kicked 10 goals 10. Great start to the year as a mid-forward, similar numbers to what Keays is putting up now but as a 19 year old. After that he played very little midfield until they gave him a random full midfield game in round 16 against North, which I think was responsive to the quality of the opposition. His rotations basically went to Pedlar instead, who didn't play midfield at all for 8 weeks and then got a block of 20-30% midfeild time from round 9 on, until that dropped off in the leadup to his rest.

I agree the team performed well during that time, so the question is did they take Rachele out of the midfield because they felt they had to, or because they didn't want him in there any more? I know what I think the answer is - I suspect we will know more in the first months of next season. It may be worth noting here that Rachele didn't play much midfield at all in 2022 (6% CBA attendance vs 27% this year), so this was his first real exposure to that position.

 

[Anzacpaul]

Our best side has one of Laird and Crouch, and one of Murphy and Keays, but not both

Laird and Keays every day of the week.

 

[StonesThrow]

What makes this top 4 any weaker than other seasons? What makes a strong top 4?

The top 4 teams are weaker than most other seasons.

We're 3/7 against the top 4 this year and have had good chances of winning all 4 that we lost. That clearly suggests the top 4 isn't that good when we're gonna finish 9-12th

Collingwood are the strongest and even they're looking shaky late in the season not to mention getting injuries to key players.

 

[Jeffcrowe]

Good: Harry Schoenberg better not be dropped again - showing signs of becoming a really good two-way midfielder. His defensive work since coming back in has been impressive and I’ve noticed he’s quite clever with his running patterns as well, starting to put himself in the right positions for repeat possessions within a chain.

Doesn’t the ball move fast when he gets involved too

 

[jackster83]

I don't think the timeline is especially exaggerated, it has both Laird and Crouch playing primary midfield minutes into their early 30s which isn't outlandish especially given Laird's existing contract.

My concern is we waste the next 3 years stuffing around with a midfield that isn't good enough only to have our premiership window slip away. The year after Laird's contract expires, so 2027, Dawson will be 30.

We need to be finding out who the next generation of midfielders are now. Schoenberg will be in his 5th season next year. That's plenty of time to get a main role. There's also plenty of league examples of a 3rd year mid being able to hold down a main role, which would be Rachele/Soligo as soon as next year

Rankine also needs to start getting some decent midfield time in 2024.

He adds a point of difference in there.

 

[pjcrows]

You don’t need to have 4-5 A grade midfielders. You do need 2-3 absolutely.

We have one.

 

[Faaarrk]

We have one.

I would say 2. Jordan and Matty.
Have Schoenberg and Pedlar rotating with those two would be pretty dynamic

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Harry has become a much more mature player. Is doing some really team orientated play and some tough team things. This is the Harry we need to have

Schoenberg is teetering ....his handling of the ball was much more assured this week ....and he actually used his pace as a weapon, with his kicking quite penetrating

He needs to build upon this game

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Crouch can stay, Sloane simply has to go.

If any game demonstrated Sloane hasn't a role in 2024 .....this game was it !

BRIS are not the quickest team in the AFL .....I would have thought Sloane would matchup well on the likes of Neale, who isn't quick

But, Sloane was invisible most of the night, whereas his snail like competitor for a 2024 list spot (Crouch) ......looked quicker, and was influential

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Really liked Worrells and Keanes games in defence today...

Very impressive both players .....sadly, my prediction of Borlaise's poor agility came to fruition .....BRIS fwds simply played high & turned his around .....even the largest ships have a better turning ability than Borlaise .....it's his Achilles heel

And Nicks noticed it as well .....happened once too often, he was costing us goals