Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[sr36]

27 year olds? Not sure I follow. Over the two year period hawthorns drafting trading has been the same as most clubs

It hasn't been the same as most clubs. One year you cleaned on most of your experienced pros and tried to move on two more who didn't want to go. The next year you chased middle of the road 26-27 year old talls - Chol, McKay and McLean. It was top up recruiting - you can look at the individual cases and try to justify them - but strategically? What are you doing?

 

[peetoo]

It hasn't been the same as most clubs. One year you cleaned on most of your experienced pros and tried to move on two more who didn't want to go. The next year you chased middle of the road 26-27 year old talls - Chol, McKay and McLean. It was top up recruiting - you can look at the individual cases and try to justify them - but strategically? What are you doing?

You get that one group was on ballers and the other talls? They have more or less maintained numbers of types, and improved in some cases, albeit maybe 3-4 years in tHe future

Stick with Kosi and Jeka over Chol? Hawks are expecting McCabe Dear and perhaps Ramsden to fill those spots, if other KPP can’t be found trading next year

Since 2010 hawthorn have used mixed recruiting every year with some obvious wins, and a few too many top ups in 17-18

 

[Yoda_]

And Essendon still won't have won a final by the time we come good.

Thanks purple, hope the head stays on with all that wobble

 

[Yoda_]

I’ll keep it simple.

Chol was brought in as the hawks needed experience and, more importantly talls to help the spine, and keep the heat of the developing talls (Dear, DGB, McCabe etc)

Massimo has afl qualities that are elite, Sam identified this and has backed him in. He has been superb on the wing, his defensive ability to push back and help out, has been brilliant. What he “did or didn’t do” at Essendon is nothing to do with him now.

Ginnivan is a “kid” who is talented and has shown to be very good, was a good pickup and you can’t really judge someone in a bottom side as a small forward.

Gunston was brought back as a depth and experienced leader.

Simple

The talk was getting leadership and experience into the club at the expense of, well, leadership and experience.

Im not denying that Ginnivan and Massimo have AFL talent, Chol is a placeholder. Gunston is stealing a pension and everyone knows this

 

[Crankyhawk]

Post your position. We all know that you'll retrospectively back whatever the Hawks do. But in your opinion, is it time to buy, sell or hold?

Forced to buy players due to salary cap floor bs

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

It hasn't been the same as most clubs. One year you cleaned on most of your experienced pros and tried to move on two more who didn't want to go. The next year you chased middle of the road 26-27 year old talls - Chol, McKay and McLean. It was top up recruiting - you can look at the individual cases and try to justify them - but strategically? What are you doing?

Who even is McLean?

I don’t know why you keep going with this argument, when you’re so clearly wrong.

The youngest list in the comp(2023), adding players to holes in the list is not topping up.

Your definitions are all wrong if you think otherwise.

 

[Yoda_]

He is also extremely poor, he’s not up to it and shown this at both Hawthorn and now Richmond where he’s barely playing even with their lacking tall options.

A partial upgrade for the expense of a second rounder isn’t exactly ideal list management?



If you wanted someone, surely you could have had Tim O’Brien (god forbid), James Stewart (when fit) or even tried to get Joel Hamling before Sydney pounced to add some mature depth to your KPP ranks?

 

[Yoda_]

Who even is McLean?

I don’t know why you keep going with this argument, when you’re so clearly wrong.

The youngest list in the comp(2023), adding players to holes in the list is not topping up.

Your definitions are all wrong if you think otherwise.

It’s like watching a North Melbourne car crash



Oh we’re the youngster list in the comp da da da da da da. We need experience da da da da da da da. Oh but JoM and Titch were no good da da da da da da da da



Looks at players brought in and two youngsters + 2 wannabe’s who wont be around in 2 years when they realise they are cooked &/or no good



Something isn’t making sense with the defence of the Hawthorn list analysis me thinks

 

[Crankyhawk]

interesting listening to a short snippet of bolton talking recently.
he was asked something along the lines of what he'd do differently or what learned from his time at Carlton.

Of his 2 points he basically said he underestimated the impact of cutting too hard/too deep on the list cull. He wouldnt cut so hard again. He said it was "professional suicide". His thoughts were you need those senior leaders in the team.

Hearing that, it has direct similarities with Hawthorn. To me they've cut too hard and too deep. I actually think they sort of realised that now, hence bringing back Gunston, but gee just giving away some of their seniors looks a bit crazy now. Having Jaeger O'meara right now would be good if for nothing more than driving training standards and i'm sure they could find a spot for Tom Mitchell!

Clearly you didn’t watch Tom’s last year with us. Extremely frustrating calling for ball in bad spots, poor quality of disposal and tendency to go sideways not forwards are what I remember

 

[Yoda_]

Clearly you didn’t watch Tom’s last year with us. Extremely frustrating calling for ball in bad spots, poor quality of disposal and tendency to go sideways not forwards are what I remember

That would come back on the coach though, would it not?

 

[SSSSSS]

I really don't get the angst over Chol.

I think he's done alright. Currently played out of position as the #1 key forward when he should be the forward/ruck but I think he's done well given the circumstances.

He was playing quite well when he had Lewis taking the #1 defender for the first few weeks.

Had a bit of a mare yesterday but plenty of mates and he's no where near our biggest concern at the moment.

He's kicked the same amount of goals as a Tom Hawkins

26

Tom Hawkins

Age

36

Ht

197cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

4.4

3star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.9

4star

G

2.1

5star

D

12.7

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.1

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.2

5star

/Todd Marshall

4

Todd Marshall

Age

26

Ht

198cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.0

2star

K

6.4

3star

HB

2.5

2star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.5

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

8.9

2star

K

7.1

3star

HB

1.8

1star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.0

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

1.6

5star

/JVR/Hipwood in a far lesser side.

 

[Crankyhawk]

That would come back on the coach though, would it not?

Or sam realising Tom no longer listening therefore outskis

 

[Yoda_]

Or sam realising Tom no longer listening therefore outskis

Yeah, but leadership and experience

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Swans have 3. Correlation of top ladder to injuries is real

Fair though the three were captains last last year.

At one stage last year most of our kpp’s were injured. We were lucky to be competitive.

For developing teams like the Hawks injury setbacks are difficult to overcome.

Who even is McLean?

I don’t know why you keep going with this argument, when you’re so clearly wrong.

The youngest list in the comp(2023), adding players to holes in the list is not topping up.

Your definitions are all wrong if you think otherwise.

Lol… you saw him yesterday

 

[peetoo]

A partial upgrade for the expense of a second rounder isn’t exactly ideal list management?



If you wanted someone, surely you could have had Tim O’Brien (god forbid), James Stewart (when fit) or even tried to get Joel Hamling before Sydney pounced to add some mature depth to your KPP ranks?

I have your level of advice rated now mate. Perhaps another clubs discussion needs you more.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Yeah, but leadership and experience

Can be leadership in the wrong direction which is the view on Tom in the last year. In contrast we had wanted to keep Gunston before going to Brisbane.

 

[SSSSSS]

Yeah, but leadership and experience

Tom Mitchell is one of the last players I would call upon for leadership.

There's a reason he's burnt bridges at two clubs now. Lets just say the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.

 

[hawkman]

Yeah, but leadership and experience

Not a good example for the rest if a senior player is constantly ignoring the coaches. Not the leadership any club needs

 

[Yoda_]

Just as an aside, Hawks could do no worse than offer our former skipper a two year deal with an eye to moving into coaching.


The ultimate professional who despite being as slow as treacle is putting together not a bad season and would be on pace to finish top 10 in a top 8 b&f for the second year running despite many writing him off as done.



Each rebuilding club needs to add the correct leaders, I look at North. Even as a basket case, the additiona of Liam Shiels

14

Liam Shiels

Age

33

Ht

184cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.2

5star

K

11.7

4star

HB

8.5

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.9

5star

CL

3.4

5star

D

17.4

4star

K

10.4

4star

HB

7.0

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

4.1

5star

CL

1.9

4star

D

12.2

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.8

5star

should do wonders for that young midfield group. Ditto Dan Howe. I look back to when Melbourne turned the corner and they had Daniel Cross

Daniel Cross

Age

41

Ht

187cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

14.8

5star

M

5.2

5star

T

4.3

5star

CL

3.0

4star

No current season stats available

D

3.2

1star

K

1.6

1star

HB

1.6

2star

M

1.0

1star

T

0.6

3star

as an example play for a year or two to set up standards for the young inexperienced players.

Perhaps it’s what Hawthorn is missing to jump back up

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Newcombe and Day have the traits of elite afl players.

Newcombe was AA squad last year and among good company winning AFLCA best young player. Day also won our B&F over Newcombe whilst he was in the AA squad.

Day is clearly going to be an A Grader and Newcombe has shown he very well could be.

Newcombe is a Petracca “type” not sure how he develops but that’s clear. Day is a tall midfielder who has immense class and leadership. He’ll be a star. Not really anyone to compare him to, have heard Fyfe before.

Probably more in the Bont or even Pendles mold I reckon.

Fyfe was just so bash and crash at his peak, and it explains the troubles he's had physically since. Cripps is similar in that regard.

Bont & Pendles, while being tall and technically 'big bodied' mids have never relied on their physicality around the contest, and their star status comes from their class with ball in hand.

I'd say Day is tracking more in their mold as a player. Oozes class and can burst from stoppage, and while he'll likely never be running blokes over like a Fyfe/Cripps, he doesn't need to to excel at his game.

He reminds me a lot of Holmes for us, who similarly has floated between halfback/wing/inside mid.

He's is a quality player and will be a star and will be a star in time, and probably the next captain at Hawthorn.

 

[Rick Ross]

On the back of Mitchell trying to defend his blow up via FoxSports, I’m going to pitch a new episode of the excellent show Forkie Asks A Question to Disney - Forkie asks Mitchell, “How do you Foot in mouth”

‘Enjoyed being coached like that’: Hawks coach stands by almighty quarter-time spray​

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/af...y/news-story/15eb37b5ec252b139604d004dd5153a0


If Mitchell ever goes to court, his lawyers should strongly suggest he doesn’t take the stand. You can see how it will play out -

“Skrimma wanted me to run him over. He enjoys being treated like that. You have to create an environment within the football club where you don’t just run someone over, you back over them a few times then drive off whilst publically warning them not to dispute coach’s version. As soon as the media department notified me that my egotistical brain fart was (obviously) televised, I called Skrimma to make the power dynamic clear:

• I’m the coach and your future is dependant upon my favour
• When the inevitable door stopped questioning from some journo comes, you’ll respond “yeah, nah, nothing to it. We’re building a robust feedback culture at Hawthorn. Sammy was spot on.”

BTW - Hawthorn are tanking, it’s the AFL version of death by cop. Where Mitchell is abusing players to achieve terrible results.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

The talk was getting leadership and experience into the club at the expense of, well, leadership and experience.

Im not denying that Ginnivan and Massimo have AFL talent, Chol is a placeholder. Gunston is stealing a pension and everyone knows this

We didn’t get ready of experience last off season, was the off season before and that worked.

Chol has talent and could put it together but not sure, he is a placeholder tho and is doing that okay, Gunston was interesting but we were crying out for leadership.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

A partial upgrade for the expense of a second rounder isn’t exactly ideal list management?



If you wanted someone, surely you could have had Tim O’Brien (god forbid), James Stewart (when fit) or even tried to get Joel Hamling before Sydney pounced to add some mature depth to your KPP ranks?

No like Koschitzke was horrific, he shouldn’t be near VFL footy let alone AFL.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

It’s like watching a North Melbourne car crash



Oh we’re the youngster list in the comp da da da da da da. We need experience da da da da da da da. Oh but JoM and Titch were no good da da da da da da da da



Looks at players brought in and two youngsters + 2 wannabe’s who wont be around in 2 years when they realise they are cooked &/or no good



Something isn’t making sense with the defence of the Hawthorn list analysis me thinks

Hawthorn need experience, but they got rid of Mitchell and Jaeger because of the direction, they can co exist. Jaeger went for a 2nd and Lloyd meek which was an unreal trade. Meek has done well and got a 2nd rounder. Mitchell went for Stephens (? Eh) and Hustwaite who looks good. But he was playing out of position at HF and wasn’t doing well enough in that position. The midfield performed much better without them. It’s a mix of needing leadership and not holding back youth.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

That would come back on the coach though, would it not?

Nah, was well known Tom wasn’t known for being a good listener, as much as I love him and I’m a huge supporter of him, as many know