Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[RCAB]

Chadwiko you've admitted a month ago, as you noted, that Hawks significantly exceed your lowly expectations.

Why do you think you were so far off? Do you think if Hawthorn make the finals you elaborate on your rationale for thinking they'd finish bottom? If they miss out, will you come back and hang crap on Hawthorn again and feel validated?

 

[Wormkilla]

Will we get two first round picks for Barrass

 

[Bugs1977]

Will we get two first round picks for Barrass

Would you hand over 2 x 1st round picks for a soon to be 29yo defender with a shopping list of injuries?

 

[Philhawk]

You've posted more than double anyone else in this thread.

If this is just a big old self-pleasure safespace for you that's fine, but please don't tag me into it for your gratification. I'm just not that into you.

Just don’t forget your bet with me.

 

[blue harvest]

Take the LLLLLLLLL dude.

 

[adammania9]

Imagine telling a Hawks fan from 2016 that the Hawks would have an irresistible midfield in 2024. They'd probably believe you. But would they believe if you told them Tom Mitchell would be at Collingwood and Jaeger O'Meara

2

Jaeger O'meara

Age

30

Ht

184cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.9

5star

K

12.4

5star

HB

10.6

5star

M

3.7

4star

T

5.5

5star

CL

4.8

5star

D

20.9

5star

K

13.0

5star

HB

7.9

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

5.0

5star

D

19.4

5star

K

11.4

4star

HB

8.0

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

4.6

5star

at Fremantle?

Imagine telling a footy fan from 2020 that in 4 years time, the Hawks will storm into finals with an irresistible midfield led by Jai Newcombe, Will Day, Conor Nash

11

Conor Nash

Age

26

Ht

198cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.7

2star

K

3.9

2star

HB

4.8

3star

M

2.0

2star

T

3.1

5star

CL

0.3

2star

No current season stats available

D

8.4

3star

K

4.2

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

4.0

5star

CL

0.2

2star

, Dylan Moore

13

Dylan Moore

Age

25

Ht

177cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.9

3star

K

5.1

2star

HB

6.7

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.9

4star

G

0.3

3star

No current season stats available

D

12.2

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

5.4

5star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

, James Worpel

5

James Worpel

Age

25

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.5

5star

K

12.2

5star

HB

11.3

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

4.5

5star

CL

5.1

5star

No current season stats available

D

15.6

4star

K

6.2

3star

HB

9.4

5star

M

1.0

1star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.8

4star

and Massimo D'Ambrosio - a good young back-flanker, an ordinary young small forward, a slow plodder, an ordinary Irish forward prospect and who else???

No club does things better than them

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You've posted more than double anyone else in this thread.

If this is just a big old self-pleasure safespace for you that's fine, but please don't tag me into it for your gratification. I'm just not that into you.

I sure have posted twice as much, and half of those posts were telling posters like yourselves what has now been proven categorically correct about the state of our list.

Let’s not forget that you were so invested in this thread and Hawthorn you were even lurk lolling posts on our board in the early part of the year.

Now that you’re being held to account, you’re having a whinge.

 

[tommyk72]

You could see what was required from Hawthorn early this year when we lost against pretty much everyone we played other than North.

There are conversations on the Hawks board discussing it.

Making finals and not tanking don't have to co-exist for the latter to be true.

Effort and crux of the new gameplan have been on display for literal years now.

This thread should be re-titled: they weren't tanking. If it was ever meant to be anything other than a troll, it would have happened by now.

This thread should now be re-titled "A bunch of Hawthorn and other supporters trying to score points on bets they made over the last 5 years".

 

[Roddy]

Imagine telling a Hawks fan from 2016 that the Hawks would have an irresistible midfield in 2024. They'd probably believe you. But would they believe if you told them Tom Mitchell would be at Collingwood and Jaeger O'Meara at Fremantle?

Imagine telling a footy fan from 2020 that in 4 years time, the Hawks will storm into finals with an irresistible midfield led by Jai Newcombe, Will Day, Conor Nash, Dylan Moore, James Worpel and Massimo D'Ambrosio - a good young back-flanker, an ordinary young small forward, a slow plodder, an ordinary Irish forward prospect and who else???

No club does things better than them

Imagine being a club that looks like being only the third in the entire history of the VFL/AFL to make finals after being 0-5, with a tall forward line that consists of Mabior Chol and Calsher Dear ….

 

[Mr Meow]

Imagine telling a Hawks fan from 2016 that the Hawks would have an irresistible midfield in 2024. They'd probably believe you. But would they believe if you told them Tom Mitchell would be at Collingwood and Jaeger O'Meara at Fremantle?

Imagine telling a footy fan from 2020 that in 4 years time, the Hawks will storm into finals with an irresistible midfield led by Jai Newcombe, Will Day, Conor Nash, Dylan Moore, James Worpel and Massimo D'Ambrosio - a good young back-flanker, an ordinary young small forward, a slow plodder, an ordinary Irish forward prospect and who else???

No club does things better than them

and Geelong. Otherwise agree.

The standard bearers of the AFL era, if you had to pick two.

 

[Wormkilla]

Would you hand over 2 x 1st round picks for a soon to be 29yo defender with a shopping list of injuries?

Were not in the window to flag up within the next few years

 

[sr36]

Imagine being a club that looks like being only the third in the entire history of the VFL/AFL to make finals after being 0-5, with a tall forward line that consists of Mabior Chol and Calsher Dear ….

I'm surprised more Hawk fans aren't talking flag. I think you've got some chance of stealing one before the list is really ready.

As you've pointed out, your talls aren't much chop, so you'll be stuffed if teams force you into a territory, long down the line game, but that hasn't been close to happening recently.

You're transitioning differently in a way that the other teams aren't drilled to defend.

a bevy of runners, sprinting at tacklers, breaking lots or drawing extra tacklers - with your support runners so well drilled to stay wider than other teams have them - and thus with tacklers closing on the aggressive ball carrier those support runners are clear of the pressure.

It's cutting teams up. Things may change in finals with the added pressure, but that could also work for you as your trick will probably still work and other teams will be the ones who have their transition slowed - unless a team can re-drill for Hawthorn specific tactics.

 

[Roddy]

I'm surprised more Hawk fans aren't talking flag. I think you've got some chance of stealing one before the list is really ready.

As you've pointed out, your talls aren't much chop, so you'll be stuffed if teams force you into a territory, long down the line game, but that hasn't been close to happening recently.

You're transitioning differently in a way that the other teams aren't drilled to defend.

a bevy of runners, sprinting at tacklers, breaking lots or drawing extra tacklers - with your support runners so well drilled to stay wider than other teams have them - and thus with tacklers closing on the aggressive ball carrier those support runners are clear of the pressure.

It's cutting teams up. Things may change in finals with the added pressure, but that could also work for you as your trick will probably still work and other teams will be the ones who have their transition slowed - unless a team can re-drill for Hawthorn specific tactics.

It's not that they're 'not much chop'. It's that neither are huge names in the annals of key forward history. One is still a teenager in his very first year, but playing above expectations so far and looking like he's going to be a gun. The other is having a career-best season, or very close to. Both are playing their role and contributing.

 

[sr36]

It's not that they're 'not much chop'. It's that neither are huge names in the annals of key forward history. One is still a teenager in his very first year, but playing above expectations so far and looking like he's going to be a gun. The other is having a career-best season, or very close to. Both are playing their role and contributing.

Yes, but I'd argue a big factor is because you're transitioning the footy so well that they're not getting stuck in a lot of long down the line or bomb to a pack situations. I don't think Chol for example would be going well if at Melbourne and forced into a lot of pack situations due to their ball movement - You're getting it in so well that his movement and agility becomes a real strength.

 

[Roddy]

Yes, but I'd argue a big factor is because you're transitioning the footy so well that they're not getting stuck in a lot of long down the line or bomb to a pack situations. I don't think Chol for example would be going well if at Melbourne and forced into a lot of pack situations due to their ball movement - You're getting it in so well that his movement and agility becomes a real strength.

You need to watch more Cholly then. His leap is quite astonishing and he's actually quite a strong aerialist and contested mark.

 

[sr36]

You need to watch more Cholly then. His leap is quite astonishing and he's actually quite a strong aerialist and contested mark.

All I'm saying is that Hawk talls aren't a strength. Mitchell would love to have Lewis fit and it's why you're chasing Battle and Barrass.

It'd cost you in a stangnant ball movement situation - but it isn't costing you much, as you're transitioning so well.

 

[T2B_]

All I'm saying is that Hawk talls aren't a strength. Mitchell would love to have Lewis fit and it's why you're chasing Battle and Barrass.

It'd cost you in a stangnant ball movement situation - but it isn't costing you much, as you're transitioning so well.

You're bang on. Hell, we have two Coleman medallist and they can struggle to get a look in when our ball movement aint flash, which is sadly more often than not lately.

But, there's been premiership sides that have done well with less than strong forward lines. Good transitioning, defensive pressure and good role players can be the difference.

 

[randyzany]

This thread should now be closed as it seems some believe Hawthorn are a dark horse for the flag this year. Makes no sense to continue debating/discussing whether they're tanking/rebuilding or not when they're now a contender according to some apparently.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

This thread should now be closesd as it seems some believe Hawthorn are a dark horse for the flag this year. Makes no sense to continue debating/discussing whether they're tanking/rebuilding or not when they're now a contender according to some apparently.

Leave it alone. It’s a beautiful thread.

 

[Delisted]

This thread should now be closed as it seems some believe Hawthorn are a dark horse for the flag this year. Makes no sense to continue debating/discussing whether they're tanking/rebuilding or not when they're now a contender according to some apparently.

 

[Roddy]

This thread should now be closed as it seems some believe Hawthorn are a dark horse for the flag this year. Makes no sense to continue debating/discussing whether they're tanking/rebuilding or not when they're now a contender according to some apparently.

Yeah nah, Tassie’s going to win a flag before we do…

 

[Guardian Hawk]

This thread should now be closed as it seems some believe Hawthorn are a dark horse for the flag this year. Makes no sense to continue debating/discussing whether they're tanking/rebuilding or not when they're now a contender according to some apparently.

Whether you agree with Hawthorn being a "dark horse for the flag" or not, this thread has been proven to be ill conceived from the get-go.

When Hawthorn traded Mitchell and O'Meara, people thought we were deliberately trying to make the team worse to get access to Harley Reid, hence Damien Barrett and the OP.

Turns out their analysis was poor and Hawthorn/Mitchell knew what they were doing - addressing our greatest weakness (we had the worst performed midfield in the comp at the time) by refreshing our midfield with the young talent already on the list for whom he wanted to give a greater role. Our midfield instantly improved and we were never in the hunt for Harley Reid, ironically finishing 5 games and a healthy percentage clear of the OP's team, before significant further improvement this season.

It was a terrible call then, made all the worse by what has transpired since (regardless of how much further we go this season).

 

[randyzany]

What is my perfect crime? I break into Tiffany's at midnight. Do I go for the vault? No, I go for the chandelier. It's priceless. As I'm taking it down, a woman catches me. She tells me to stop. It's her father's business. She's Tiffany. I say no. We make love all night. In the morning, the cops come and I escape in one of their uniforms. I tell her to meet me in Mexico, but I go to Canada. I don't trust her. Besides, I like the cold. Thirty years later, I get a postcard. I have a son and he's the chief of police. This is where the story gets interesting. I tell Tiffany to meet me by the Trocadero in Paris. She's been waiting for me all these years. She's never taken another lover. I don't care. I don't show up. I go to Berlin. That's where I stashed the chandelier.

Interesting what some minds find amusing. Plenty of time on your hands to write that creative piece of writing as a response to something that was pretty straight forward.

This is how to do it. It takes a lot to acknowledge when we get things wrong.


Not like Randy, doubling, tripling and quadrupling down on his offended, head-trauma takes.

Is it '89?
Is it '08?
Is it '13?

Is it that 2 bacardi cruisers and access to Internet on your phone is too much Randy?

Hang up the boots mate, you're cooked.

Yes I am going to double down on judging foolishness on the nebulous/ambiguous trivial concept of when the Hawks tanking began, something that based on this thread even Hawthorn fans between themselves can't agree on.

Like I said Hawthorn fans can believe the rebuild started this year for all I care, all I know for a fact is that Hawthorn has been struggling down the bottom of the ladder for close to a decade and now are finally clawing themselves out of that hole. Well done for finally putting to good use all the top tier talent handed to you in that time.

 

[Delisted]

Interesting what some minds find amusing. Plenty of time on your hands to write that creative piece of writing as a response to something that was pretty straight forward.


Yes I am going to double down on judging foolishness on the nebulous/ambiguous trivial concept of when the Hawks tanking began, something that based on this thread even Hawthorn fans between themselves can't agree on.

Like I said Hawthorn fans can believe the rebuild started this year for all I care, all I know for a fact is that Hawthorn has been struggling down the bottom of the ladder for close to a decade and now are finally clawing themselves out of that hole. Well done for finally putting to good use all the top tier talent handed to you in that time.

Nice melt.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Interesting what some minds find amusing. Plenty of time on your hands to write that creative piece of writing as a response to something that was pretty straight forward.


Yes I am going to double down on judging foolishness on the nebulous/ambiguous trivial concept of when the Hawks tanking began, something that based on this thread even Hawthorn fans between themselves can't agree on.

Like I said Hawthorn fans can believe the rebuild started this year for all I care, all I know for a fact is that Hawthorn has been struggling down the bottom of the ladder for close to a decade and now are finally clawing themselves out of that hole. Well done for finally putting to good use all the top tier talent handed to you in that time.

The silly part of the whole "I don't care when the rebuild started" narrative is that you were the one to raise it in this thread.

In terms of "struggling at the bottom for a decade" - a decade ago Hawthorn were half way through their threepeat. Even since the threepeat, Hawthorn have finished top 4 ('16 and '18) more times than they've finished bottom 4 ('22).

Now we're on the way back up again.

This is how Hawthorn have gone about it for a long time. Some teams like yours might be up there in the top half year in year out consistently. It's commendable - but it has not been any more successful. Hawthorn, on the other hand, tend to have periods up the top and periods out of finals. Thing is, when we do come good - we tend to come good properly and capitalise on our up periods, usually winning one (or multiple) flags. That's why we've remained the most successful club over the last 50 - 100 years