Preview R10: Changes v GWS

[Southerntakeover]

No quote? At least what you've posted above isn't completely moronic. I mean, you didn't really think that what he said on radio had any impact on his future as a player. Ha, ha, a plea to the list managers was it? Let's hope they were listening. Seriously though, at least you're not still suggesting that absurdity in defence of your man. Anyway, your personal attack aside, it's just an opinion in a discussion forum, no big deal. I thought the same when Hampton talked himself up in an interview. Just overcooked it a bit, big deal, still worth a page of discussion for those interested.

This is complete idiocy.

Of course when players make public statements they make them with the desire to create a particular effect. Whether the statement's likely to have any influence is an entirely different point.

Your criticism is utterly unreasonable. It's reflective of a demented hate campaign, not a genuine controversy.

 

[macca23]

No quote? At least what you've posted above isn't completely moronic. I mean, you didn't really think that what he said on radio had any impact on his future as a player. Ha, ha, a plea to the list managers was it? Let's hope they were listening. Seriously though, at least you're not still suggesting that absurdity in defence of your man. Anyway, your personal attack aside, it's just an opinion in a discussion forum, no big deal. I thought the same when Hampton talked himself up in an interview. Just overcooked it a bit, big deal, still worth a page of discussion for those interested.

I heard both interviews - VB and Hampton - and of course they spoke well of themselves and their attributes etc. Unless a player was a must pick every week, he would have to be off his rocker to float negative thoughts about his ability and performances.

I actually feel sorry for VB. He's played 205 games at AFL level and there's been some very good games in that lot. One thing's for certain - whether his performance is good or bad, he does try his guts out. If only the same could be said of Henderson.

However one thing is sadly obvious IMO. Thanks to that faulty equipment that sliced his Achilles, he's not up to the pace of AFL football currently. He still tries his guts out, but he just can't deliver the necessary any more. The Giants game was played at finals like tempo and VB was caught out badly and no doubt will be replaced by Laird as soon as he is available - in all likelihood this week.

While he is no longer best 22 IMO, he doesn't deserve to be pilloried as if he is a piece of human crap.

Respect and appreciation cost nothing and while accepting that he no longer belongs at this top level, a guy of his character and overall record deserves both of these.

 

[1970crow]

I heard both interviews - VB and Hampton - and of course they spoke well of themselves and their attributes etc. Unless a player was a must pick every week, he would have to be off his rocker to float negative thoughts about his ability and performances.

I actually feel sorry for VB. He's played 205 games at AFL level and there's been some very good games in that lot. One thing's for certain - whether his performance is good or bad, he does try his guts out. If only the same could be said of Henderson.

However one thing is sadly obvious IMO. Thanks to that faulty equipment that sliced his Achilles, he's not up to the pace of AFL football currently. He still tries his guts out, but he just can't deliver the necessary any more. The Giants game was played at finals like tempo and VB was caught out badly and no doubt will be replaced by Laird as soon as he is available - in all likelihood this week.

While he is no longer best 22 IMO, he doesn't deserve to be pilloried as if he is a piece of human crap.

Respect and appreciation cost nothing and while accepting that he no longer belongs at this top level, a guy of his character and overall record deserves both of these.

VB's a player I can't feel sorry for. Has cashed a likely huge pay cheque under false pretences for 2.5 of the last 3.5 years. He was a fringe player prior to his achilles, finishing about 22nd in the 2 b&f's prior to injury on votes per game. Lyons is a player I feel sorry for, does his job, developing, but always found himself back out of the side, but still stuck with us despite genuine offers. Martin another one, 2 knee reco's always did his job, tried his guts out and put his body on the line. I know you have a soft spot uncle macca, only those with one tried to suggest his 38 touch tagging debacle against the Pies a couple of years ago was somehow acceptable.

It's common for not best 22 players to mention the reason their opportunity has presented itself. You aren't talking yourself down by being realistic about that and going on to say that you're confident that you'll get the job done while required. This shows the respect due to the genuine player(s) who is injured and is commonly heard. This culture is also prevalent when you hear players divert the focus in interviews from their performance and talk about team. VB had an opportunity to show a bit of thankfulness for an opportunity and some humbleness and respect to an injured brethren while at it. None of that requires him talking himself down or saying he's shit and from the pure selfless individual that he is, it's what you'd expect.

No one has suggested he's human crap, don't be pathetic. He deserves nothing that isn't afforded other footballers whether they've played 20 games or 200 at this or any other club. He gets respect based on his output, his mates and fanbois can respect him for the person that he is. I'd have Charlie Manson in the team if he was the difference between a flag and 2nd.

 

[cmndstab]

VB's a player I can't feel sorry for. Has cashed a likely huge pay cheque under false pretences for 2.5 of the last 3.5 years.

I'm not sure how you can be upset at VB for this. He doesn't write his own cheques.

 

[1970crow]

I'm not sure how you can be upset at VB for this. He doesn't write his own cheques.

I'm not angry or upset with him, I just can't feel sorry for a guy who has been afforded every opportunity, in every role his physical characteristics allow, and delivered so little while being continually selected and paid handsomely. Feel sorry for him all you want, but as I said, there's much more deserving candidates for those emotions as far as I'm concerned.

 

[cmndstab]

I guess I just don't feel like I have a limited supply of emotions that need to be rationed out

I respect VB enormously for his contribution to our club. He's busted his ass for over a decade. He's bled for the club. He's taken on leadership roles from a young age and is one of very few people to ever be our captain. Sadly, due to a combination of injuries, age, and the continued evolution of AFL, the game is now past him. I'm sad for him because it's obviously something he loves and it's not that long since he was a very solid contributor at AFL level. I'm also sad at the sheer volume of vitriol that is directed towards him over the last several years, when all he's ever done is put everything he has into trying to help our side win matches of footy.

But it's clear to all and sundry that it's time for him to move on. I don't begrudge him being on the list this year, his leadership and experience is invaluable to his young teammates who all clearly love him. But hopefully he recognises his time is now past and knows that one of the most important aspects of leadership is knowing when to move on gracefully.

 

[skoobydoo]

I guess I just don't feel like I have a limited supply of emotions that need to be rationed out

I respect VB enormously for his contribution to our club. He's busted his ass for over a decade. He's bled for the club. He's taken on leadership roles from a young age and is one of very few people to ever be our captain. Sadly, due to a combination of injuries, age, and the continued evolution of AFL, the game is now past him. I'm sad for him because it's obviously something he loves and it's not that long since he was a very solid contributor at AFL level. I'm also sad at the sheer volume of vitriol that is directed towards him over the last several years, when all he's ever done is put everything he has into trying to help our side win matches of footy.

But it's clear to all and sundry that it's time for him to move on. I don't begrudge him being on the list this year, his leadership and experience is invaluable to his young teammates who all clearly love him. But hopefully he recognises his time is now past and knows that one of the most important aspects of leadership is knowing when to move on gracefully.

Agree. Surely the Club has a finger on the true pulse here and is carefully managing VB in the very observable decline of his football career? Or is it just dropping and re-instating until total embarrassment occurs. Very difficult scenario particularly with the compounding of the sled/Achilles saga.

 

[the universal]

The AFL site's new 'in the mix' article is pretty adamant that Laird will come in for vB. Suggested that Henderson had very little impact.

Although I don't think these articles are ever anything more than speculation, it does show the views of this board shown elsewhere.

 

[Pugsley]

I guess I just don't feel like I have a limited supply of emotions that need to be rationed out

I respect VB enormously for his contribution to our club. He's busted his ass for over a decade. He's bled for the club. He's taken on leadership roles from a young age and is one of very few people to ever be our captain. Sadly, due to a combination of injuries, age, and the continued evolution of AFL, the game is now past him. I'm sad for him because it's obviously something he loves and it's not that long since he was a very solid contributor at AFL level. I'm also sad at the sheer volume of vitriol that is directed towards him over the last several years, when all he's ever done is put everything he has into trying to help our side win matches of footy.

But it's clear to all and sundry that it's time for him to move on. I don't begrudge him being on the list this year, his leadership and experience is invaluable to his young teammates who all clearly love him. But hopefully he recognises his time is now past and knows that one of the most important aspects of leadership is knowing when to move on gracefully.

This.

 

[1970crow]

I guess I just don't feel like I have a limited supply of emotions that need to be rationed out

I respect VB enormously for his contribution to our club. He's busted his ass for over a decade. He's bled for the club. He's taken on leadership roles from a young age and is one of very few people to ever be our captain. Sadly, due to a combination of injuries, age, and the continued evolution of AFL, the game is now past him. I'm sad for him because it's obviously something he loves and it's not that long since he was a very solid contributor at AFL level. I'm also sad at the sheer volume of vitriol that is directed towards him over the last several years, when all he's ever done is put everything he has into trying to help our side win matches of footy.

But it's clear to all and sundry that it's time for him to move on. I don't begrudge him being on the list this year, his leadership and experience is invaluable to his young teammates who all clearly love him. But hopefully he recognises his time is now past and knows that one of the most important aspects of leadership is knowing when to move on gracefully.

I don't think it's a matter of available emotion, more that relative to others I simply think it's misplaced. I don't see him as any greater special consideration than most others that have played for this club. I don't care whether he was captain or not, it's obviously a role he coveted and clung to till the very end. I don't care that he's a 200 game player because he didn't really deserve to get there, so that doesn't put him ahead of 180 game players in my book. An exciting start and a solid contribution over his career, not much else to be said really. Let's hope we can add that he knew when to hang them up as well.

Edit - should say that he gave it his all and got the best out of himself as well.

 

[cmndstab]

I don't think it's a matter of available emotion, more that relative to others I simply think it's misplaced. I don't see him as any greater special consideration than most others that have played for this club. I don't care whether he was captain or not, it's obviously a role he coveted and clung to till the very end. I don't care that he's a 200 game player because he didn't really deserve to get there, so that doesn't put him ahead of 180 game players in my book. An exciting start and a solid contribution over his career, not much else to be said really. Let's hope we can add that he knew when to hang them up as well.

The problem is there is (only barely) veiled hostility in all of these sentences. It seems impossible to mention VB without people trying to find snide ways to take a dig at him.

You don't care whether he was captain? It's a massive honour and one that isn't just handed out. It's also a massive amount of extra work and responsibility and he shouldered that for the club you love. You owe him your thanks for that. You should absolutely care about it.

We don't have any idea about whether he "clung to till the very end". He didn't make himself captain, and he didn't choose his replacement. He was asked to fill a role, a role that his coaches and teammates nominated him for, and he took it on with everything he had. If he coveted it, then rightly so. He should be immensely proud of it until the day he dies. There's nothing there that is worthy of anything other than admiration.

There are plenty of players who don't deserve the number of games they play. Nonetheless, he has played 200 games. That's a massive achievement. He deserves the respect associated with that milestone.

I agree, he was never a star player. I agree, the game has gone past him now and I hope he knows when it is time to hang up the boots. I just don't agree that means it's reasonable for supporters of the club he's tried to carry on his shoulders to direct vitriol his way. By all means, take aim at the selectors who keep picking him. By all means, decry his poor on-field form. But as a person, VB has done everything he could for our club, and has had a fair bit of success along they way.

 

[Sanders]

I don't have strong feelings either way, but I'm not totally understanding the vantage point that VB gave more than he got so he deserves extra consideration

Has he done anymore or any less than others or than expected?

And he has hung on real tight out of self interest, not exactly team first. Which is his right and I don't begrudge him, but he's not a team first Saint either

 

[1970crow]

The problem is there is (only barely) veiled hostility in all of these sentences. It seems impossible to mention VB without people trying to find snide ways to take a dig at him.

You don't care whether he was captain? It's a massive honour and one that isn't just handed out. It's also a massive amount of extra work and responsibility and he shouldered that for the club you love. You owe him your thanks for that. You should absolutely care about it.

We don't have any idea about whether he "clung to till the very end". He didn't make himself captain, and he didn't choose his replacement. He was asked to fill a role, a role that his coaches and teammates nominated him for, and he took it on with everything he had. If he coveted it, then rightly so. He should be immensely proud of it until the day he dies. There's nothing there that is worthy of anything other than admiration.

There are plenty of players who don't deserve the number of games they play. Nonetheless, he has played 200 games. That's a massive achievement. He deserves the respect associated with that milestone.

I agree, he was never a star player. I agree, the game has gone past him now and I hope he knows when it is time to hang up the boots. I just don't agree that means it's reasonable for supporters of the club he's tried to carry on his shoulders to direct vitriol his way. By all means, take aim at the selectors who keep picking him. By all means, decry his poor on-field form. But as a person, VB has done everything he could for our club, and has had a fair bit of success along they way.

These arbitrary games played numbers bore me. I understand for certain reasons they serve a purpose. But how far does playing exactly 200 games elevate a player above one that finished on 199 in your mind? How many did Darren Jarman play for this club? Am I allowed to rate him significantly higher for what he did for our club even though he's a captaincy and 80 games short? Through the last half of his career VB has been nothing more than an honest battler captaining a mediocre side. I wonder how much respect Cassisi is afforded by the people who use your metrics to value a player's contribution and how much respect their career should garner.

There's a lot of emotion surrounding this player and I personally can't understand it. Some of the comments, like Macca referring to him being treated like he's human garbage, are ridiculous. He's an average footballer that's played around 200 games for the club, we've farewelled many similar over the journey, many better some worse. Just because he was captain and reached an arbitrary number doesn't push him past a player like Shirley in my mind.

 

[earlsta]

I'm more angrier towards the footy dept for continuing to reward poor form & invent roles for vb.
He probably want to play on for another two years going on his last interview, will be interested to see how this all pans out.

 

[1970crow]

I'm more angrier towards the footy dept for continuing to reward poor form & invent roles for vb.
He probably want to play on for another two years going on his last interview, will be interested to see how this all pans out.

Agree, my view on VB is no different to any other player shown too much patience at selection. It's not like he dropped off a cliff though, I think there's a fair bit of revisionism by the people who supported those selections. I think maybe they're finally arriving at the conclusion that he's clearly past it. Since he same back, he's been no worse than pre-injury, but we've been a bit better and he's been overtaken, which puts him on the wrong side of best 22. I have little doubt that VB would genuinely back himself in to remain in the 22 this year and go around again.

 

[cmndstab]

These arbitrary games played numbers bore me. I understand for certain reasons they serve a purpose. But how far does playing exactly 200 games elevate a player above one that finished on 199 in your mind? How many did Darren Jarman play for this club? Am I allowed to rate him significantly higher for what he did for our club even though he's a captaincy and 80 games short? Through the last half of his career VB has been nothing more than an honest battler captaining a mediocre side. I wonder how much respect Cassisi is afforded by the people who use your metrics to value a player's contribution and how much respect their career should garner.

There's a lot of emotion surrounding this player and I personally can't understand it. Some of the comments, like Macca referring to him being treated like he's human garbage, are ridiculous. He's an average footballer that's played around 200 games for the club, we've farewelled many similar over the journey, many better some worse. Just because he was captain and reached an arbitrary number doesn't push him past a player like Shirley in my mind.

Obviously I'm not going to view a player differently if he plays 199 games instead of 200. But being in that ballpark is very impressive. Not many players do that.

You're allowed to rate players however you like, of course. My point is, you made a point of actively deriding him for playing more games than you think he should have, and for captaining the side longer than you think he should have. Those aren't knocks on him, they're achievements. If you want to knock someone for them, the people in charge who picked him and made him captain are the ones to knock.

I absolutely dismiss this notion that he held onto the captaincy and only gave it up kicking and screaming. He put his best foot forward, as all players would do so, and led the side the best way he could. And when the powers that be decided his time as captain was over he moved on gracefully. It's a slur on his character to suggest otherwise and as far as I can tell, completely without basis.

 

[Sanders]

I absolutely dismiss this notion that he held onto the captaincy and only gave it up kicking and screaming. He put his best foot forward, as all players would do so, and led the side the best way he could. And when the powers that be decided his time as captain was over he moved on gracefully. It's a slur on his character to suggest otherwise and as far as I can tell, completely without basis.

Sam Mitchell went to the Hawks and said he should give up the captaincy as Hodgey was the better leader and right man for the job

VB ain't no sam Mitchell on a lot of levels

 

[1970crow]

Obviously I'm not going to view a player differently if he plays 199 games instead of 200. But being in that ballpark is very impressive. Not many players do that.

You're allowed to rate players however you like, of course. My point is, you made a point of actively deriding him for playing more games than you think he should have, and for captaining the side longer than you think he should have. Those aren't knocks on him, they're achievements. If you want to knock someone for them, the people in charge who picked him and made him captain are the ones to knock.

I absolutely dismiss this notion that he held onto the captaincy and only gave it up kicking and screaming. He put his best foot forward, as all players would do so, and led the side the best way he could. And when the powers that be decided his time as captain was over he moved on gracefully. It's a slur on his character to suggest otherwise and as far as I can tell, completely without basis.

No, I made the comment about the game number as a reference to the arbitrary milestones that I find meaningless judging a player. Caltaincy is important to VB mark on the club because throughout his career he didn't really deliver much else. With players like Roo and Goodwin, that they were captains pales against their playing careers. Bicks is a bit different because he captained 2 premierships, so there's a bit of an aura around that.

Not all incumbent captains put their best foot forward, at least not publicly. Name one other recent captain who has not publicly retired from the role before the decision on the replacement is made. I'm not naive enough to think these are their decisions alone, I'm sure there's been many a tap on the shoulder and man conversation had.

Sure I blame the selectors for selecting him and other plodders when they didn't deserve it. I've no problem with him being selected captain. As someone said, it was a time when we were bereft of leaders and he stood up and accepted the mantle. A very meaningful compliment if read with an objective mind. Did he perhaps hold it for a year too long, doubtful. I really don't think the club were in a position to make a long term appointment with Danger/Sloane not committed long term and Tex not returned from his knee. But should I rejoice in him having been captain and been selected for more games than his form/ability warranted? Like all captains (except Bicks) before him, it doesn't enter my thought process, so I'm left with him as a footballer. And there's really not much there to get upset about his imminent retirement or to feel sorry for. Quite the opposite, he's been blessed to have been a part of a club with a culture that valued highly exactly what he brought.