List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 5

[richoatthedisco]

Because you’re not following that plan, you’re trying to avoid a cliff.

As I’ve clearly said the script for winning a premiership has continually be proven by the Pies, Hawks, Dogs, WCE, Us and Dees.

Get top 5 picks in and build around them in 3-4 drafts. Again even the cats did that just they got f/s to replace their top 5s.



And a team without multiple MVP type players won’t win a premiership. A team full of support players ends up being 4-10 side.




So draft picks are unreliable? May as well trade them for AFL quality.



What top picks? Their only top 5 pick outside Buddy in 2014 was McVeigh. They are in fact an exception to the rule as they’re best players like Goodes, Parker, Hanners, Kennedy are later picks or trades.



Yeah and they have 2 top 5 picks Boak and Rozee. Boak is old and rozee young neither in their prime.



proving that premierships are hard to win.



Getting players wasn’t why they failed. A terrible succession plan and hubris was what killed them.



Gibson, Rioli, Frawley, Stratton, Birchall, JOM, Shoenmakers all played less then 10 games in 17 and they got rid of their core key players in Mitchell and Lewis in 17 and Hodge the year after.



The Hawks, Lions us and Dees are examples of how the system is meant to work. The cap (especially 95% and 105% banking) and draft are meant to ensure you can’t stay at the top. So when you’re there you need to go all in.

cats, us and Dees show it takes 7-12 years to get a flag, Hawks and Dogs pinched one early, but the Hawks real dynasty started in 13 when Buddy, roughy, and Lewis were in year 9.

Dogs and Dees now with Petracca year 7, Bont year 8, etc.. are now coming into that time. But that doesn’t mean you’ll win a premiership just means you’ve got your best shot.



We do have a solid draft hand but hardly enviable. But as I keep pointing out you need a bunch of really high picks to be your match winners. You don’t replace Dusty with pick 7 or Cotchin with pick 15. You need top 5 picks to replace those guys or an incredible amount of luck.

Instead you give them the best support now from the draft and then dive down the ladder to get a bunch of top 5 picks in quick succession, Sydney (with help of academy) and WCE exploit this better than anyone and why they’re such power houses of the competition.



No winning a fourth is the goal!

Setting up the club to win more in the future with our current kids is a pipe dream.

RCD and Bolton IMO have top 5 mids in the comp potential but it’s a big if and the only other 2 guys with A grade potential are Stack and Balta. Cotchin and Martin looked like potential brownlow medalist in their first seasons.

We need to go all in to win the fourth now, and then rebuild when the chance has passed, by hitting the draft as hard as possible with a couple of top 5 picks and a bunch of other first and second rounders when that time comes.

Also, I’m not saying trade 7 unless it’s for Callaghan or Tom Greene etc. But 15 should be on the table as we have a shot at a flag even if it’s not a perfect or guaranteed shot. Because our next rebuild could be Saints with Reiwoldt or GWS with all their top picks, or Lions with their bunch of top picks etc.
It takes a lot to go right to win a premiership especially with circular nature of the league.

Personally I think Hawks did it right, they gave another flag a decent shot (although trading out leaders was a mistake) and now they’ve got a chance to stockpile top 5 picks and other early picks over 2-3 drafts before charging up the ladder in the second half of the decade.

 

[TigerPaul71]

Can we get dogs or pies 20s pick package up 2 20s to take saints or something like that??
how do we get another first round pick?
Would like one more 2 good mids and a forward

 

[richoatthedisco]

was gonna include him but didn’t feel he was a major factor in their premierships (although he had a good 11 finals series), but didn’t think about how it could have been him or Selwood.

They probably would have had to use the pick 24 they drafted Stevie J with to match a Gablett bid as well.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

No chance. Hill or no Hill, I wouldn't go near Stengle again. There's a good reason we got rid of him and why Adelaide also recently moved him on.

Stengle and Stack together. Hahaha... Yep..great idea eh!!!

 

[_RT_]

Richmond won with a core of quality being dusty and cotchin. Picks 3 and 2 which should have been pick ones.

Vlastuin top 10 and the deledio trade former pick 1.

How are you going to replicate that? Speculative prospects may not cut the mustard.

Obviously it would be nice to have another dynasty focused around will Martyn. Ryan. And co. But that looks a long way off

Posted this last night:

Vlastuin pick 9
Grimes PSD
Prestia pick 9
Martin pick 3
B.Ellis pick 15
Grigg pick 19
Baker rookie
Riewoldt pick 13
Cotchin pick 2
Edwards pick 26
Castagna R2 rookie
Astbury pick 35
Houli pick 42
Short R1 rookie
Rioli pick 15
Rance pick 18
Lynch pick 11
Soldo R4 rookie
Balta pick 25
Caddy pick 7
Lambert R3 rookie
Nankervis pikc 35
Bolton pick 29
McIntosh pick 31
Graham pick 53
Broad pick 67
Butler pick 67
Pickett MSD

Martin and Cotchin are the only top 5 picks, Caddy next highest at 7. The rest are either mid/late first round picks (and I'd argue they were the true core of the line up)or taken in the 2nd round onwards in the draft, including a handful of rookie picks who came from nowhere so to speak.

We're in a great position draft wise to continue to build the foundation for the next era. With potentially 5 top 30 picks we could add a couple of midfielders and 3 KPPs to our list to develop while we still have our premiership stars around to help teach them, so that when they retire the next group are ready to take over.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Didn’t think much of the show but always liked the song.

Mmmm...Shirley...

What about the Family Ties song?

What would we do baby, without us?
And there ain't no nothin' we can't love each other through
What would we do baby, without us?
Sha-la-la-la

 

[Sir_Loin]

Technically yes. But we currently havr already more good draft picks than spaces available. So maybe trade out a Caddy type, trade 3-4 for 2022 picks, which we need to do anyway I think just as there aren't enough spots. So upgrading a rookie I don't see as an option.

Delist Egg, upgrade Miller on a one year deal. Take Freeman in the PSD.

Not saying we should do it but if we wanted to we could create a spot for him.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Posted this last night:

Vlastuin pick 9
Grimes PSD
Prestia pick 9
Martin pick 3
B.Ellis pick 15
Grigg pick 19
Baker rookie
Riewoldt pick 13
Cotchin pick 2
Edwards pick 26
Castagna R2 rookie
Astbury pick 35
Houli pick 42
Short R1 rookie
Rioli pick 15
Rance pick 18
Lynch pick 11
Soldo R4 rookie
Balta pick 25
Caddy pick 7
Lambert R3 rookie
Nankervis pikc 35
Bolton pick 29
McIntosh pick 31
Graham pick 53
Broad pick 67
Butler pick 67
Pickett MSD

Martin and Cotchin are the only top 5 picks, Caddy next highest at 7. The rest are either mid/late first round picks (and I'd argue they were the true core of the line up)or taken in the 2nd round onwards in the draft, including a handful of rookie picks who came from nowhere so to speak.

We're in a great position draft wise to continue to build the foundation for the next era. With potentially 5 top 30 picks we could add a couple of midfielders and 3 KPPs to our list to develop while we still have our premiership stars around to help teach them, so that when they retire the next group are ready to take over.

Yeah but ones the goat, ones the greatest skipper in modern history and you have a killer in floss - plus got the core of the '16 trade from pick 1, in lids.

The dees and dogs midfield are essentially all top 5 picks in their prime. Again how do you want replicate Oliver track bont macrae etc?

It's hard to do without rebuilding proper from the bottom. Just the nature of the system

 

[NaturalDisaster]

Take the off topic shit to the TAN. Next person to post off topic garbage is threadbanned.

 

[Calcium Man]

Posted this last night:

Vlastuin pick 9
Grimes PSD
Prestia pick 9
Martin pick 3
B.Ellis pick 15
Grigg pick 19
Baker rookie
Riewoldt pick 13
Cotchin pick 2
Edwards pick 26
Castagna R2 rookie
Astbury pick 35
Houli pick 42
Short R1 rookie
Rioli pick 15
Rance pick 18
Lynch pick 11
Soldo R4 rookie
Balta pick 25
Caddy pick 7
Lambert R3 rookie
Nankervis pikc 35
Bolton pick 29
McIntosh pick 31
Graham pick 53
Broad pick 67
Butler pick 67
Pickett MSD

Martin and Cotchin are the only top 5 picks, Caddy next highest at 7. The rest are either mid/late first round picks (and I'd argue they were the true core of the line up)or taken in the 2nd round onwards in the draft, including a handful of rookie picks who came from nowhere so to speak.

We're in a great position draft wise to continue to build the foundation for the next era. With potentially 5 top 30 picks we could add a couple of midfielders and 3 KPPs to our list to develop while we still have our premiership stars around to help teach them, so that when they retire the next group are ready to take over.

So we would win 3 flags if we don’t have Cotchin and Martin? I don’t think we win one.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Am I correct in saying the club would still need to make one more delisting if we wanted to use all current six selections we have?

It’s two isnt it?

 

[beema limapep]

Am I correct in saying the club would still need to make one more delisting if we wanted to use all current six selections we have?

Need 2 more delistings from the main list to get to 6 I think. Garth could be one. Egg probably will be too but is on the rookie list so iIIRC it doesnt count.

Max number of picks in the draft will be 5. 4 if we bring in a player like Hill or Mitchell etc

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Because you’re not following that plan, you’re trying to avoid a cliff.

As I’ve clearly said the script for winning a premiership has continually be proven by the Pies, Hawks, Dogs, WCE, Us and Dees.

Get top 5 picks in and build around them in 3-4 drafts. Again even the cats did that just they got f/s to replace their top 5s.



And a team without multiple MVP type players won’t win a premiership. A team full of support players ends up being 4-10 side.




So draft picks are unreliable? May as well trade them for AFL quality.



What top picks? Their only top 5 pick outside Buddy in 2014 was McVeigh. They are in fact an exception to the rule as they’re best players like Goodes, Parker, Hanners, Kennedy are later picks or trades.



Yeah and they have 2 top 5 picks Boak and Rozee. Boak is old and rozee young neither in their prime.



proving that premierships are hard to win.



Getting players wasn’t why they failed. A terrible succession plan and hubris was what killed them.



Gibson, Rioli, Frawley, Stratton, Birchall, JOM, Shoenmakers all played less then 10 games in 17 and they got rid of their core key players in Mitchell and Lewis in 17 and Hodge the year after.



The Hawks, Lions us and Dees are examples of how the system is meant to work. The cap (especially 95% and 105% banking) and draft are meant to ensure you can’t stay at the top. So when you’re there you need to go all in.

cats, us and Dees show it takes 7-12 years to get a flag, Hawks and Dogs pinched one early, but the Hawks real dynasty started in 13 when Buddy, roughy, and Lewis were in year 9.

Dogs and Dees now with Petracca year 7, Bont year 8, etc.. are now coming into that time. But that doesn’t mean you’ll win a premiership just means you’ve got your best shot.



We do have a solid draft hand but hardly enviable. But as I keep pointing out you need a bunch of really high picks to be your match winners. You don’t replace Dusty with pick 7 or Cotchin with pick 15. You need top 5 picks to replace those guys or an incredible amount of luck.

Instead you give them the best support now from the draft and then dive down the ladder to get a bunch of top 5 picks in quick succession, Sydney (with help of academy) and WCE exploit this better than anyone and why they’re such power houses of the competition.



No winning a fourth is the goal!

Setting up the club to win more in the future with our current kids is a pipe dream.

RCD and Bolton IMO have top 5 mids in the comp potential but it’s a big if and the only other 2 guys with A grade potential are Stack and Balta. Cotchin and Martin looked like potential brownlow medalist in their first seasons.

We need to go all in to win the fourth now, and then rebuild when the chance has passed, by hitting the draft as hard as possible with a couple of top 5 picks and a bunch of other first and second rounders when that time comes.

Also, I’m not saying trade 7 unless it’s for Callaghan or Tom Greene etc. But 15 should be on the table as we have a shot at a flag even if it’s not a perfect or guaranteed shot. Because our next rebuild could be Saints with Reiwoldt or GWS with all their top picks, or Lions with their bunch of top picks etc.
It takes a lot to go right to win a premiership especially with circular nature of the league.

Personally I think Hawks did it right, they gave another flag a decent shot (although trading out leaders was a mistake) and now they’ve got a chance to stockpile top 5 picks and other early picks over 2-3 drafts before charging up the ladder in the second half of the decade.

For starters i'm in the get mitchell camp.Pick 15 the Hawks would jump at it.But i'd want a future pick back.
Having said that.
If you wanna go all in then i think we almost sell the farm to get our hands on picks 2 & 3 this year.
To achieve it we'd have to some pretty good ass kissing towards the Giants/Suns & Bombers and less kissing towards the Pies.
Getting picks 2 & 3 would almost certainly set us up post Cotch/Shedda/Presta etc.
In the end it would look something like this:
2021:Callahan/Ward/Pick 28.
22ick 19-25/36
And we also have plenty of cap space for some FA's.
So i'm all for some ass kissing if it achieves the above.

 

[Bojangles17]

Mmmm...Shirley...

What about the Family Ties song?

What would we do baby, without us?
And there ain't no nothin' we can't love each other through
What would we do baby, without us?
Sha-la-la-la

The littlest hobo , did I love that show, could only watch on holidays as it was mid morning , still recall like yesterday the breaking news of Granville train disaster ,,,hey wtf going on put the show back on

 

[beema limapep]

Can the 80s tv talk please be toned down a bit.

At least post something about the draft in the same post.

 

[richoatthedisco]

The littlest hobo , did I love that show, could only watch on holidays as it was mid morning , still recall like yesterday the breaking news of Granville train disaster ,,,hey wtf going on put the show back on

Not for me.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Can the 80s tv talk please be toned down a bit.

 

[richoatthedisco]

For starters i'm in the get mitchell camp.Pick 15 the Hawks would jump at it.But i'd want a future pick back.
Having said that.
If you wanna go all in then i think we almost sell the farm to get our hands on picks 2 & 3 this year.
To achieve it we'd have to some pretty good ass kissing towards the Giants/Suns & Bombers and less kissing towards the Pies.
Getting picks 2 & 3 would almost certainly set us up post Cotch/Shedda/Presta etc.
In the end it would look something like this:
2021:Callahan/Ward/Pick 28.
22ick 19-25/36
And we also have plenty of cap space for some FA's.
So i'm all for some ass kissing if it achieves the above.

Show your working.

 

[lumpinee]

What I think our best 22 will look like with the players on the list now. So obviously no draft picks or Mitchell/O’Meara if we trade for one of them.
B: Short - Balta - Grimes
HB: Vlastuin- Tarrant - Broad
C: Ralphsmith - Cotchin - Graham
HF: Lambert - Lynch - Dusty
F: Baker - Riewoldt - Aarts
R: Nank - Bolton - Prestia
INT: RCD - Soldo - Mansell - Cumberland

Still leaves a lot of talent waiting a gig
Stack, Dow, Pickett, Rioli, Castagna, McIntosh, Miller, Ross, Caddy and our 2-3 picks in the top 20.
We’re in a really good spot next year for another go at a flag. I’d have no problem going for a guy like Mitchell for O’Meara if it was a good deal for us. Even if we packaged up someone like Ross with pick 26, also clears $150-200k salary.

Aarts is not AFL finals standard,Bakers a pure HB,Grahams not a wingmans headband,mansells a battler,im happy to be proven wrong tho on him
and if we draft 2 under #10 they should be played from the get go like all our single digit draftees before them,whats the difference ?play them theyre
top dozen picks,straight in,and no need to sell Ross off for a tired hack,he could turn it around in'22

 

[Theo23]

Multiple posters on the North board are trying to justify the CCJ trade by claiming they can trade in Melbourne’s second round pick and send that to us in a trade. If only they had a basic understanding of the rules.

They have been very salty and aggressive in the PM’s being sent to me!

 

[Marcel Proust]

Aarts is not AFL finals standard,Bakers a pure HB,Grahams not a wingmans headband,mansells a battler,im happy to be proven wrong tho on him
and if we draft 2 under #10 they should be played from the get go like all our single digit draftees before them,whats the difference ?play them theyre
top 10-12 picks,straight in,and no need to sell Ross off for a tired hack,he could turn it around in'22

Baker has looked alright forward / mid.

I would look at him there is DRioli continues to improve as a defender.

Might be needed there with George's / aarts form

 

[T4P]

15+28+38 for Mitchell, O'Meara and 2022 2nd...

 

[Sir_Loin]

Looks like he’s 28

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

Posted this last night:

Vlastuin pick 9
Grimes PSD
Prestia pick 9
Martin pick 3
B.Ellis pick 15
Grigg pick 19
Baker rookie
Riewoldt pick 13
Cotchin pick 2
Edwards pick 26
Castagna R2 rookie
Astbury pick 35
Houli pick 42
Short R1 rookie
Rioli pick 15
Rance pick 18
Lynch pick 11
Soldo R4 rookie
Balta pick 25
Caddy pick 7
Lambert R3 rookie
Nankervis pikc 35
Bolton pick 29
McIntosh pick 31
Graham pick 53
Broad pick 67
Butler pick 67
Pickett MSD

Martin and Cotchin are the only top 5 picks, Caddy next highest at 7. The rest are either mid/late first round picks (and I'd argue they were the true core of the line up)or taken in the 2nd round onwards in the draft, including a handful of rookie picks who came from nowhere so to speak.

We're in a great position draft wise to continue to build the foundation for the next era. With potentially 5 top 30 picks we could add a couple of midfielders and 3 KPPs to our list to develop while we still have our premiership stars around to help teach them, so that when they retire the next group are ready to take over.

Agree RT. Four top 30 picks this year and two, possibly three next year, is odds on to produce at least one A grader and likely two B+ graders, all who will be at that point soon after our current ones are retiring.
The interim years (1-2) are the ones perhaps could see the danger. But we need the picks to get the kids in. So the next 2-3 years is dependent on the current group of 19-22 stepping up. If they don't, then yes, we might finish out if the 8 again in 2023/4. But with our current group, with the 7 draftees coming in, no reason top 4 finishes are not possible each year. As always, injuries play their part.
Upgrading to pick 2 or 3 while great is not happening without two 1st rounders or more out the door. We saw the Norf knock back. Bringing a Tarrant type makes sense as we keep our picks. Ageing players (FA or late picks) makes sense to me. We are right with the list now though -we just need to nail 3/4 of our picks this draft ... Big ask? Perhaps.

 

[Calcium Man]

For starters i'm in the get mitchell camp.Pick 15 the Hawks would jump at it.But i'd want a future pick back.
Having said that.
If you wanna go all in then i think we almost sell the farm to get our hands on picks 2 & 3 this year.
To achieve it we'd have to some pretty good ass kissing towards the Giants/Suns & Bombers and less kissing towards the Pies.
Getting picks 2 & 3 would almost certainly set us up post Cotch/Shedda/Presta etc.
In the end it would look something like this:
2021:Callahan/Ward/Pick 28.
22ick 19-25/36
And we also have plenty of cap space for some FA's.
So i'm all for some ass kissing if it achieves the above.

If we could get Callaghan and Ward I’d be right behind it and would sell our draft hand for it (within reason, keep both our seconds next year and at least 1 in 20s this year). They’re more the good enough to impact next year as well as build another premiership contender in 7-10 years.

But I’d be surprised if we could make that happen