List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 5

[_RT_]

You act like it's the same situation. When the Hawks brought those two in Buddy was already gone, Mitchell was gone, Lewis was gone, Lake was gone, Hale was gone, Hill was gone, Suckling was gone, Sewell was gone, Guerra was gone.

Bringing in one of those two would be more akin to Hawthorn bringing in Lake or Frawley. Or Brisbane adding Caracella in 2003. Or Carlton adding 28-year-old Greg Williams after they'd won just eight games in 1991.

When Hawthorn brought in Mitchell and O'Meara at the end of 2016 they still had 17 of their premiership winners on the list, including Roughead Gibson McEvoy Burgoyne Whitecross Frawley Birchall Hodge Smith Gunston Bruest & Shiels and they finished 12th the year after and then managed to get to the top 4 in 2018, before dropping down the ladder and now looking at selling off the players they brought in to try and get that 4th flag.

 

[juss]

What's the best we could get for 38+40?

Bulldogs 23?

 

[Marcel Proust]

When Hawthorn brought in Mitchell and O'Meara at the end of 2016 they still had 17 of their premiership winners on the list, including Roughead Gibson McEvoy Burgoyne Whitecross Frawley Birchall Hodge Smith Gunston Bruest & Shiels and they finished 12th the year after and then managed to get to the top 4 in 2018, before dropping down the ladder and now looking at selling off the players they brought in to try and get that 4th flag.

And now they are at the bottom rebuilding organically.

If you focus on draft picks there is a good chance Richmond stay 9th forever in no man's land again. When the stars are gone
.
You want to be at the top or bottom in the afl system not in no man's land

 

[Wacky Tiger]

51 won't be enough for dodo to get Hill. Wonder if they'd do 26 and 28 for 11?

38 and 40 for pies 27.

Take 7, 11, 15 and 27 to the draft. Or give 15 and future 1st for GCs pick 3 and take 3, 7, 11 and 27.

If the shoe were on the other foot would you?


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[GoTigers2015]

What's the best we could get for 38+40?

Bulldogs 23?

Unlikely it will be 23. Bulldogs will gain only 79 points
Pick 23 815 pts cf with picks 38/40 894

Pick 27 from Collingwood more likely but I can't see that happening until draft night.

 

[lumpinee]

Pickett has won two flags in 5 minuets

Daniel Rioli has looked very promising I'm the backline.

The others you mention are doubtful best22 outside edwards

who were Butler,Castagna,Townsend,Lambert & a 1st year Rioli mid 2017 ? they were certainly nobodies in 2016 after being destroyed by 113 points
in the last round,so come mid '17 who were they ? it wasnt as if Richmond was being touted as premiership material,the one definite and the only definite was
that Dusty was in Brownlow mode,that was it.Graham hadnt even played a game yet iirc
Its time to elevate 4-6 youngsters into the mix on a weekly basis in'22

 

[tiger_tough]

If the shoe were on the other foot would you?


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Depends how badly they want Hill I guess? 28 is a lot better than 51 in the draft.

What about 11 and a future 3rd for 15 and 28? Still keeps them in the first round while we get an upgrade and strengthen our 2022 hand.

Or 11 and future 2nd for 15, 28 and future 3rd. Seems pretty fair.

 

[LuKe2428]

From an outsiders point of view I can see this draft setting you up for a long time to come in cluding next years draft.
I could see you trading pick 38 for St Kilda's future second as they need point for Marcus Windhager who is likely to get a bid in the mid 20's.
Trading 28 and Pick 40 for 23 and a future 3rd rounder at the Bulldogs would also work out for both teams.
Then trade 26 and 15 for 11 and a future second rounder from Essendon with your third going back. That would leave you with 3 second rounders in 2022 which could easily be turned into higher picks with teams who require points for academy or father son selections. That would guarantee at least two first round selections in 2022 as well while you head to this years draft with 7, 11 and 23 as your main selections.
You could trade 23 for Ladhams if there was interest to get him to Richmond.

Actually think that’s a pretty good assessment mate. Well done, I’d just swap Ladams for Mitchell or O’Meara personally.

 

[Marcel Proust]

who were Butler,Castagna,Townsend,Lambert & a 1st year Rioli mid 2017 ? they were certainly nobodies in 2016 after being destroyed by 113 points
in the last round,so come mid '17 who were they ? it wasnt as if Richmond was being touted as premiership material,the one definite and the only definite was
that Dusty was in Brownlow mode,that was it.Graham hadnt even played a game yet iirc
Its time to elevate the young group before its too late.

Having graham and Townsend bob up and contribute for a flag doesn't mean Cumberland and ralphsmith will do the same.

I'd lean towards the draft but if the club wants to top up I'd understand the thought process.

It's hard to win and more chance while grimes. Lynch. Martin. Are still around.

You run the risk of being stuck in no man's land investing in middling draft picks too down the track

Richmond have invested in a lot of kids recently but the quality doesn't seem all that impressive tbh. You'd give them a pass with the pandemic rooting the reserves i guess but everyone else is in the same boat

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

If the shoe were on the other foot would you?


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In all probability our future 1st we give the suns will be heading back our way in a few years.

 

[TiggerMan22]

This is now the 4th incarnation of Trades and Free Agency. This incarnation is already up to 10k posts. I just noticed that the sum total of our entire AFLW has had only 5.7k posts!!! I have my reasons why I'm not interested in AFLW but with covid lockdowns and over half our population being female. I wonder if the AFL realise that not many people actually care or have any genuine interest? I bet there's been over 5.7k posts proposing various pick swaps? I know there's been at least double that pontificating about the holy blessed pick 17 in this year's draft. I'm getting anxious about Gillan calling pick 17 on draft night as I'm unsure do I bow down and avert my eyes lest I get Raiders of the lost Arked? Or do I dance around like a Hare Krishna? Good thing times on my side.View attachment 1256961

Kinda silly to judge interest by bigfooty posts.

 

[Wacky Tiger]

Depends how badly they want Hill I guess? 28 is a lot better than 51 in the draft.

What about 11 and a future 3rd for 15 and 28? Still keeps them in the first round while we get an upgrade and strengthen our 2022 hand.

Or 11 and future 2nd for 15, 28 and future 3rd. Seems pretty fair.

Reckon they could find an easier way of doing it than coughing up 11. Future 2nd more likely


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[fargothegreat]

Am I correct in saying the club would still need to make one more delisting if we wanted to use all current six selections we have?

Right now we've got 4 senior list spots available. Astbury, Houli, Naish, CJ and Chol all departed, and Tarrant has come in. So we'd need to delist two more to use all six picks. (Garth, Biggy, Stack and Cumberland remain unsigned atm)

Our rookie list currently has 7 players and is only allowed to have 6, so someone needs to be cut from there too (Egg and Miller both unsigned atm)

 

[tigerdan]

Hi folks,
Can you tell me if Ryan Garthwaite has a new contract, or is likely to get one?
Cheers.

He's not very good at AFL level and now that we got Tarrant he's only going to get a game in the case of injury.

I reckon he's going to be made to walk the plank. Depending on what we do with our rookie list maybe they'll try to fit him in there but I think he's going to be cut loose.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Reckon they could find an easier way of doing it than coughing up 11. Future 2nd more likely


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Would be funny if they did give away their future 2nd and that 2nd was the difference between getting King and not in next years trade.
All for a dime a doz small/fwd.

 

[LuKe2428]

What I think our best 22 will look like with the players on the list now. So obviously no draft picks or Mitchell/O’Meara if we trade for one of them.
B: Short - Balta - Grimes
HB: Vlastuin- Tarrant - Broad
C: Ralphsmith - Cotchin - Graham
HF: Lambert - Lynch - Dusty
F: Baker - Riewoldt - Aarts
R: Nank - Bolton - Prestia
INT: RCD - Soldo - Mansell - Cumberland

Still leaves a lot of talent waiting a gig
Stack, Dow, Pickett, Rioli, Castagna, McIntosh, Miller, Ross, Caddy and our 2-3 picks in the top 20.
We’re in a really good spot next year for another go at a flag. I’d have no problem going for a guy like Mitchell for O’Meara if it was a good deal for us. Even if we packaged up someone like Ross with pick 26, also clears $150-200k salary.

 

[_RT_]

And now they are at the bottom rebuilding organically.

If you focus on draft picks there is a good chance Richmond stay 9th forever in no man's land again. When the stars are gone
.
You want to be at the top or bottom in the afl system not in no man's land

Focusing on the draft until you have a solid foundation that puts you in contention, then allows you make targeted trades/free agency pick ups to top off the list, the exact same way we did it prior to winning the flag in 2017.

Our current list is towards the end of it's cycle in terms of being a genuine threat, with some good fortune we may get that 4th flag in 2022, but it's more likely that we're a mid table side that will finish between 6th-12th.

If we make finals then anything can happen, you only need to get hot for a month to make a run at a flag. If we don't we've got great draft capital to either add more talented kids or target some younger ready made help that can be with us for 7+ years rather than 2-4 years Mitchell would be with us for.

 

[Al Heimer]

Please God make it happen ...Every club door Dodoro opens hoping to get assistance for a possible trade for Hill either gets slammed in his huge conk nose or an offer that will ream his fat pimple pus arse.

On SM-J250F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Marcel Proust]

Focusing on the draft until you have a solid foundation that puts you in contention, then allows you make targeted trades/free agency pick ups to top off the list, the exact same way we did it prior to winning the flag in 2017.

Our current list is towards the end of it's cycle in terms of being a genuine threat, with some good fortune we may get that 4th flag in 2022, but it's more likely that we're a mid table side that will finish between 6th-12th.

If we make finals then anything can happen, you only need to get hot for a month to make a run at a flag. If we don't we've got great draft capital to either add more talented kids or target some younger ready made help that can be with us for 7+ years rather than 2-4 years Mitchell would be with us for.

Richmond won with a core of quality being dusty and cotchin. Picks 3 and 2 which should have been pick ones.

Vlastuin top 10 and the deledio trade former pick 1.

How are you going to replicate that? Speculative prospects may not cut the mustard.

Obviously it would be nice to have another dynasty focused around will Martyn. Ryan. And co. But that looks a long way off

 

[Marcel Proust]

What I think our best 22 will look like with the players on the list now. So obviously no draft picks or Mitchell/O’Meara if we trade for one of them.
B: Short - Balta - Grimes
HB: Vlastuin- Tarrant - Broad
C: Ralphsmith - Cotchin - Graham
HF: Lambert - Lynch - Dusty
F: Baker - Riewoldt - Aarts
R: Nank - Bolton - Prestia
INT: RCD - Soldo - Mansell - Cumberland

Still leaves a lot of talent waiting a gig
Stack, Dow, Pickett, Rioli, Castagna, McIntosh, Miller, Ross, Caddy and our 2-3 picks in the top 20.
We’re in a really good spot next year for another go at a flag. I’d have no problem going for a guy like Mitchell for O’Meara if it was a good deal for us. Even if we packaged up someone like Ross with pick 26, also clears $150-200k salary.

You are asking a lot from ralphsmith. Cumberland. Aarts. Mansell etc. To try and best dogs/Melbourne going forward

 

[Sol23]

What I think our best 22 will look like with the players on the list now. So obviously no draft picks or Mitchell/O’Meara if we trade for one of them.
B: Short - Balta - Grimes
HB: Vlastuin- Tarrant - Broad
C: Ralphsmith - Cotchin - Graham
HF: Lambert - Lynch - Dusty
F: Baker - Riewoldt - Aarts
R: Nank - Bolton - Prestia
INT: RCD - Soldo - Mansell - Cumberland

Still leaves a lot of talent waiting a gig
Stack, Dow, Pickett, Rioli, Castagna, McIntosh, Miller, Ross, Caddy and our 2-3 picks in the top 20.
We’re in a really good spot next year for another go at a flag. I’d have no problem going for a guy like Mitchell for O’Meara if it was a good deal for us. Even if we packaged up someone like Ross with pick 26, also clears $150-200k salary.

Aarts in our best side?? Give it up
Don’t know how anyone on here can think he’s still best 22.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

Going to disagree with two things here. Firstly im sick of hearing about the Dees juggernaut. They were great this year in sept but we were seen to be unbeatable in 2018 and didn’t even make the GF. This a sport and no one is unbeatable- why even turn up if you reckon someone else has the next flag already wrapped up?

Also the McIntosh hate is harsh. Yeah his disposal is only average but if you focus on what he does do instead of what he doesn’t you’ll see he is a great 2 way runner, works back to help out in defense. He keeps his width really well to provide release options, he’s strong and good size so can be physical against smaller wingers like Hill, Langdon, Hunter etc.
You can’t have a team of A graders so he plays his role really well - just needs to improve disposal.

Agree with all of that on Macca, except the last point. His disposal is never improving. It is what it is. The brain snaps he can control though. Some of them are horrendous. He has a proven ability to play a role in a premiership team. He has one wing as his for now for me.

 

[G String]

Whats all this talk about Bobby Hill? Has anyone watched him play - he plays like a mix of Brad Hill and Cale Morton - but think skinner and with less competitiveness. Also, thought his disposal was a bit iffy as well.

Theres no way he's coming to the Tigers - he is the opposite of everything we stand for and definitely the opposite of what we want/need

 

[Calcium Man]

So why deviate from that plan now

Because you’re not following that plan, you’re trying to avoid a cliff.

As I’ve clearly said the script for winning a premiership has continually be proven by the Pies, Hawks, Dogs, WCE, Us and Dees.

Get top 5 picks in and build around them in 3-4 drafts. Again even the cats did that just they got f/s to replace their top 5s.

The point is that unless you surround them with enough quality support, it won't matter how good they are, you will struggle.

And a team without multiple MVP type players won’t win a premiership. A team full of support players ends up being 4-10 side.

For every premiership winning top pick we had there is another unsuccessful pick. We nailed Cotchin Martin Vlastuin Riewoldt we missed with Vickery Conca Lennon C.Ellis

So draft picks are unreliable? May as well trade them for AFL quality.

Sydney added Buddy the best forward of the decade and no flag despite also being stacked with top picks.

What top picks? Their only top 5 pick outside Buddy in 2014 was McVeigh. They are in fact an exception to the rule as they’re best players like Goodes, Parker, Hanners, Kennedy are later picks or trades.

Port have been adding players to their list for a few years now and continue to fall short

Yeah and they have 2 top 5 picks Boak and Rozee. Boak is old and rozee young neither in their prime.

Geelong been chasing a flag for a decade continue to go to the well trying to bring in the missing piece and fail.

proving that premierships are hard to win.

Pies after 2010 went out and added players for years trying to get another flag and failed

Getting players wasn’t why they failed. A terrible succession plan and hubris was what killed them.

Hawthorn at the end of 2016 added Mitchell & O'Meara to a side that still had 17 of their 2015 premiership winners playing and had just finished 3rd in 2016. The following year they dropped to 12th, rebounded to 4th in 2018, then 9th, 15th in 2020 and 14th this year. Now they are looking at a fire sale to get rid of the likes of Mitchell and O'Meara

Gibson, Rioli, Frawley, Stratton, Birchall, JOM, Shoenmakers all played less then 10 games in 17 and they got rid of their core key players in Mitchell and Lewis in 17 and Hodge the year after.

So while I agree that we should give our guys a crack at a 4th flag, I don't agree that we should be giving up valuable draft assets to do so.

Because I'm looking at the bigger picture rather than focusing on the here and now. As I've said it's easy to get seduced by the chance at winning a 4th, but as I just pointed out above, Hawthorn tried to get that 4th flag while they still had the heart of their threepeat team running around and it failed. As the club have said we've looked at what Brisbane Hawthorn and Geelong have done in terms of trying to keep their dynasties going and all of them failed to do so successfully and it was all because those teams chased ready made players to try and beat the system.

The Hawks, Lions us and Dees are examples of how the system is meant to work. The cap (especially 95% and 105% banking) and draft are meant to ensure you can’t stay at the top. So when you’re there you need to go all in.

cats, us and Dees show it takes 7-12 years to get a flag, Hawks and Dogs pinched one early, but the Hawks real dynasty started in 13 when Buddy, roughy, and Lewis were in year 9.

Dogs and Dees now with Petracca year 7, Bont year 8, etc.. are now coming into that time. But that doesn’t mean you’ll win a premiership just means you’ve got your best shot.

We're playing the system, we've got ourselves an enviable draft hand this year and already have 3 picks inside the first 2 rounds for next year. That's potentially 8 top 30 rated kids we could add to our list over the next 18 months, which gives us 8 chances to nail long term replacements for the likes of Cotchin Riewoldt Edwards Martin Grimes Lambert Lynch & Prestia who are closer to the end than the start of their careers.

We do have a solid draft hand but hardly enviable. But as I keep pointing out you need a bunch of really high picks to be your match winners. You don’t replace Dusty with pick 7 or Cotchin with pick 15. You need top 5 picks to replace those guys or an incredible amount of luck.

Instead you give them the best support now from the draft and then dive down the ladder to get a bunch of top 5 picks in quick succession, Sydney (with help of academy) and WCE exploit this better than anyone and why they’re such power houses of the competition.

To put it another way, winning a 4th would be a bonus, but winning the clubs 14th, 15th & 16th in the next decade should be the ultimate aim and playing the system the right way will give us the best chance as we've proven over the last 12 years.

No winning a fourth is the goal!

Setting up the club to win more in the future with our current kids is a pipe dream.

RCD and Bolton IMO have top 5 mids in the comp potential but it’s a big if and the only other 2 guys with A grade potential are Stack and Balta. Cotchin and Martin looked like potential brownlow medalist in their first seasons.

We need to go all in to win the fourth now, and then rebuild when the chance has passed, by hitting the draft as hard as possible with a couple of top 5 picks and a bunch of other first and second rounders when that time comes.

Also, I’m not saying trade 7 unless it’s for Callaghan or Tom Greene etc. But 15 should be on the table as we have a shot at a flag even if it’s not a perfect or guaranteed shot. Because our next rebuild could be Saints with Reiwoldt or GWS with all their top picks, or Lions with their bunch of top picks etc.
It takes a lot to go right to win a premiership especially with circular nature of the league.

Personally I think Hawks did it right, they gave another flag a decent shot (although trading out leaders was a mistake) and now they’ve got a chance to stockpile top 5 picks and other early picks over 2-3 drafts before charging up the ladder in the second half of the decade.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Then he holds onto Mitchell. We cant afford his salary unless Caddy is off the books

If all thats being said is true it sounds to me like Sam is wanting to stamp his mark and getting rid of the Clarko 'Boys'

Mitchell knows the Hawks are a below average side even with Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard. He knows the best way for them is the patient build from the bottom with a raft of early picks over the next few years. He knows that as a new coach with this approach he'll be given plenty of time.

As a favourite son, realistic Hawks fans will be behind him all the way and hoping for an injection of 3+ top-5 and 5-7 first rounders over the next three drafts.

Caddy- any takers?? Please.
We need one more list spot.


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I reckon we're stuck with him.