Which side is closer to a premiership - Carlton or Essendon?

[Yoda_]

The same boring monotonous comparisons from ones own club has done little to move this debate forward.


I'll throw this out there;


Unpopular opinion but Harry McKay

10

Harry Mckay

Age

26

Ht

200cm

Wt

106kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.9

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

2.4

2star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.4

5star

D

6.6

1star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

2star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.0

5star

is very much an over rated footballer. Yes, he takes a big mark (5th overall for contested marks), and gets to dangerous spots (3rd overall for marks inside 50) but if he isn't catching it and kicking for goal he is almost useless.



Most would take Tom Hawkins

26

Tom Hawkins

Age

36

Ht

197cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

4.4

3star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.9

4star

G

2.1

5star

D

12.7

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.1

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.2

5star

over Josh Kennedy (West Coast) who plays a similar style of Harry McKay

10

Harry Mckay

Age

26

Ht

200cm

Wt

106kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.9

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

2.4

2star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.4

5star

D

6.6

1star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

2star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.0

5star

of the last decade.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

The same boring monotonous comparisons from ones own club has done little to move this debate forward.


I'll throw this out there;


Unpopular opinion but Harry McKay is very much an over rated footballer. Yes, he takes a big mark (5th overall for contested marks), and gets to dangerous spots (3rd overall for marks inside 50) but if he isn't catching it and kicking for goal he is almost useless.



Most would take Tom Hawkins over Josh Kennedy (West Coast) who plays a similar style of Harry McKay of the last decade.

Unpopular opinion but Buddy Franklin is very much an over rated footballer. Yes he kicks big bags of goals but he isn't a good contested mark

McKay was getting double teamed all year and had a shoulder injury throughout yet still averaged over 3 goals a game and 5.5 shots
Won the coleman despite missing 4 games and getting concussed 5 minutes into a 5th.

Could be the most overrated player in history but he's still an absolute monster and any team in the league would pay millions to get him. Absolute nightmare for any teams defence

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

For someone whos useless when he's not taking marks and kicking goals he certainly doesn't look too bad below his knees either

 

[boncer34]

The same boring monotonous comparisons from ones own club has done little to move this debate forward.


I'll throw this out there;


Unpopular opinion but Harry McKay is very much an over rated footballer. Yes, he takes a big mark (5th overall for contested marks), and gets to dangerous spots (3rd overall for marks inside 50) but if he isn't catching it and kicking for goal he is almost useless.



Most would take Tom Hawkins over Josh Kennedy (West Coast) who plays a similar style of Harry McKay of the last decade.

I'd take McKay in a heart beat.

 

[Thrawn]

The same boring monotonous comparisons from ones own club has done little to move this debate forward.


I'll throw this out there;


Unpopular opinion but Harry McKay is very much an over rated footballer. Yes, he takes a big mark (5th overall for contested marks), and gets to dangerous spots (3rd overall for marks inside 50) but if he isn't catching it and kicking for goal he is almost useless.



Most would take Tom Hawkins over Josh Kennedy (West Coast) who plays a similar style of Harry McKay of the last decade.

So who kidnapped the real Yoda?

 

[Yoda_]

I'd take McKay in a heart beat.

So would I but the carry on is like he is some sort of messiah is a bit far fetched. He is trending towards Josh Kennedy (West Coast) not Tom Hawkins (who most probably under estimate how good a forward he is).

I am not suggesting he is a dud by the way

 

[boncer34]

So would I but the carry on is like he is some sort of messiah is a bit far fetched. He is trending towards Josh Kennedy (West Coast) not Tom Hawkins (who most probably under estimate how good a forward he is).

I am not suggesting he is a dud by the way

I'm not sure I see your point here. Kenndy is slightly better than Hawkins. What does Hawkins do better than Kennedy?

Kennedy kicks more goals, takes more marks, lays more tackles.

McKay is a gun, pretty simple, don't need to over think it.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Cripps better than Merrett presently?

Interesting take.

Cripps had a poor 2021 but I think his best is better than Merrett's best. Even conceding that one, it's still 4-1 Carlton in those comparisons.

 

[Yoda_]

I'm not sure I see your point here. Kenndy is slightly better than Hawkins. What does Hawkins do better than Kennedy?

Kennedy kicks more goals, takes more marks, lays more tackles.

Hawkins has better all round forward craft imho

 

[boncer34]

Cripps had a poor 2021 but I think his best is better than Merrett's best. Even conceding that one, it's still 4-1 Carlton in those comparisons.

2019 version of Cripps sure. But the 2020/2021 version, nah.

 

[Yoda_]

Cripps had a poor 2021 but I think his best is better than Merrett's best. Even conceding that one, it's still 4-1 Carlton in those comparisons.

Im, still struggling to see the dick measuring that the pro Carlton group is having. They have all these guns and stars yet they were games and significant percentage behind Essendon on the ladder.

Even with one of the best defenders in the comp, they had one of the leakiest defences in the comp (2nd) and whilst McKay was one of the Coleman medal favourites throughout the year, they were mid table (10th) for kicking a score.

 

[boncer34]

Hawkins has better all round forward craft imho

Statistics don't back up this view but ok. Feels like your splitting hairs for the sake of knocking Carlton.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

The same boring monotonous comparisons from ones own club has done little to move this debate forward.


I'll throw this out there;


Unpopular opinion but Harry McKay is very much an over rated footballer. Yes, he takes a big mark (5th overall for contested marks), and gets to dangerous spots (3rd overall for marks inside 50) but if he isn't catching it and kicking for goal he is almost useless.



Most would take Tom Hawkins over Josh Kennedy (West Coast) who plays a similar style of Harry McKay of the last decade.

Unpopular for a reason. Borderline stupid.

 

[Yoda_]

Unpopular for a reason. Borderline stupid.

What makes Harry this messiah some make him out to be?

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

What makes Harry this messiah some make him out to be?

Who called him a messiah?

But anyway, won the Coleman medal quite comfortably despite missing 3 games with injury. Youngest to do so since Riewoldt a decade ago, and did it without a certified second tall next to him. Will only get better with Charlie next to him taking some heat.

If he has half the career of a guy like Kennedy he's done well.

 

[windyhill]

Holy ****, and on it goes.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Im, still struggling to see the dick measuring that the pro Carlton group is having. They have all these guns and stars yet they were games and significant percentage behind Essendon on the ladder.

Even with one of the best defenders in the comp, they had one of the leakiest defences in the comp (2nd) and whilst McKay was one of the Coleman medal favourites throughout the year, they were mid table (10th) for kicking a score.

Role players, standards and coaching structures were worst in the league. All you have to look to for examples of this is our 'high profile recruits' we've brought in. Zac Williams, Adam Saad, Jack Martin, Mcgovern. They all came in on decent coin and regardless of if you rate them these days or not played practically every week under Teague. They played injured, overweight, and confused and have been rightly scrutinized in the media and on forums since. A year ago Zac Williams was a gun half back who a dozen clubs were chasing in free agency... Now hes a laughing stock amongst blues and oppo fans alike. Mcgovern was once a promising young forward and now is a laughing stock. Martin, a super talent whos now just an overpaid laughing stock... the list goes on.

In fact its a similar story for one of your very own guns. Jake Stringer. When you watched on in years past you could still see the utter brilliance that was the talent of Jake Stringer... but he was fat, lazy and inconsistent. This year to no surprise after getting in shape in the off season he came back and lit the comp alight. He had far less bad games and poor stretches, was able to stay on the park and was finally able to play the mid minutes he needed to shine. Everyone knew Jake Stringer was a gun but its very hard to have faith in someone whos history suggests they wont come back fit enough until they actually do it.

I watched a lot of the bombers this year and thought many of the players had career best years under Trucks high standards compared to Woosha. Blokes like Stewart and Laverde transformed into reliable KPD instead of flaky KPF. Stringer, Parish, Merrett, Redman, Hind, Snelling, Langford. All these blokes had really quality years but I see the next step of improvement coming from beneath as I'd say most of them played about as well as you could expect them to. The Cox Reid Perkins group will be what propels the bombers up the ladder if they come on like we expect. However, that will likely take a few years if we are going off draftees natural progression.

The difference imo with Carlton and Essendons lists are that almost all of Carltons quality senior core is currently in a similar basket to what Stringer was. Its only really Mckay Walsh and Weitering who you can see busting their guts to try to get the team over the line and then a few youngsters around the edges. Yes Essendon missed Sheil and Caldwell for a large chunk of the year and Hurley has been a great player who would have been handy (not sure how hed go in a return given his injuries and age but a champ regardless) but all of Mcgovern, Williams, Cripps, Docherty, Curnow, Martin, and Saad were well below their history suggests they can and should be playing. None of them are slowing down in old age yet, they just werent doing what they need to do to play at their best, just like Stringer was.

If you had a fully firing Cripps, Williams, Saad and Curnow alone to add to Walsh Mckay and Weitering then that team is almost tenfold better. These blokes are A graders and everyone knows they are whether you want to bag out the Blues or not. They just need to get their bodies and mindsets right and have a half competent coaching group to give them a structure that works defensively. All the pieces are there for the Blues to improve if these guys get back to their best and they dont need to wait 3-4 years for the youngsters to come through for that to happen as much. Whether we can contend for a flag is a whole other question as that will require some of youngsters coming on, but if that senior core was playing consistent footy I see us making finals comfortably with the list we have.


All that said... The Blues let me down every single year so I fully expect I'll be back to repost a similar spiel in 12 months time when the Carlton media team suck me in again.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

For someone whos useless when he's not taking marks and kicking goals he certainly doesn't look too bad below his knees either

Whoever number 17 is, wow! What a bath Harry gave him.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Whoever number 17 is, wow! What a bath Harry gave him.

That would be James Stewart who isn't a defenders arseh*le

 

[HereComesJuddy]

That would be James Stewart who isn't a defenders a-hole

Good call. Abdolute dud.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Good call. Abdolute dud.

We are desperate for a full back who can take those big power fowards so we are trying to turn Stewart into a defender but hasn't worked imo

If there is a gorrila full back avaible as a FA or trade we should be all over it.

 

[Ambrosia]

Whoever number 17 is, wow! What a bath Harry gave him.

To be fair to Stewart it was his first game of AFL for the year from a hamstring injury and his first or second game as a defender.

 

[Ambrosia]

Role players, standards and coaching structures were worst in the league. All you have to look to for examples of this is our 'high profile recruits' we've brought in. Zac Williams, Adam Saad, Jack Martin, Mcgovern. They all came in on decent coin and regardless of if you rate them these days or not played practically every week under Teague. They played injured, overweight, and confused and have been rightly scrutinized in the media and on forums since. A year ago Zac Williams was a gun half back who a dozen clubs were chasing in free agency... Now hes a laughing stock amongst blues and oppo fans alike. Mcgovern was once a promising young forward and now is a laughing stock. Martin, a super talent whos now just an overpaid laughing stock... the list goes on.

In fact its a similar story for one of your very own guns. Jake Stringer. When you watched on in years past you could still see the utter brilliance that was the talent of Jake Stringer... but he was fat, lazy and inconsistent. This year to no surprise after getting in shape in the off season he came back and lit the comp alight. He had far less bad games and poor stretches, was able to stay on the park and was finally able to play the mid minutes he needed to shine. Everyone knew Jake Stringer was a gun but its very hard to have faith in someone whos history suggests they wont come back fit enough until they actually do it.

I watched a lot of the bombers this year and thought many of the players had career best years under Trucks high standards compared to Woosha. Blokes like Stewart and Laverde transformed into reliable KPD instead of flaky KPF. Stringer, Parish, Merrett, Redman, Hind, Snelling, Langford. All these blokes had really quality years but I see the next step of improvement coming from beneath as I'd say most of them played about as well as you could expect them to. The Cox Reid Perkins group will be what propels the bombers up the ladder if they come on like we expect. However, that will likely take a few years if we are going off draftees natural progression.

The difference imo with Carlton and Essendons lists are that almost all of Carltons quality senior core is currently in a similar basket to what Stringer was. Its only really Mckay Walsh and Weitering who you can see busting their guts to try to get the team over the line and then a few youngsters around the edges. Yes Essendon missed Sheil and Caldwell for a large chunk of the year and Hurley has been a great player who would have been handy (not sure how hed go in a return given his injuries and age but a champ regardless) but all of Mcgovern, Williams, Cripps, Docherty, Curnow, Martin, and Saad were well below their history suggests they can and should be playing. None of them are slowing down in old age yet, they just werent doing what they need to do to play at their best, just like Stringer was.

If you had a fully firing Cripps, Williams, Saad and Curnow alone to add to Walsh Mckay and Weitering then that team is almost tenfold better. These blokes are A graders and everyone knows they are whether you want to bag out the Blues or not. They just need to get their bodies and mindsets right and have a half competent coaching group to give them a structure that works defensively. All the pieces are there for the Blues to improve if these guys get back to their best and they dont need to wait 3-4 years for the youngsters to come through for that to happen as much. Whether we can contend for a flag is a whole other question as that will require some of youngsters coming on, but if that senior core was playing consistent footy I see us making finals comfortably with the list we have.


All that said... The Blues let me down every single year so I fully expect I'll be back to repost a similar spiel in 12 months time when the Carlton media team suck me in again.

I think this a reasonable assessment for Carlton especially. It’s easy to see how all of Cripps, Williams, McGovern, Curnow and Martin could improve significantly this year. I think you’re overblowing Saad’s poor year he was still good maybe not quite as good as 2020 but still very good imo.

That being said I think a lot of the guys who you said had “career years” at Essendon would be still expected to improve maybe not dramatically but it’s not like they were some random unsustainable out of the box years.

Stewart - First year as a KPD and was improving significantly as the year went on. Knock on wood will complete his first full preseason at the club in years.

Laverde - similar to Stewart

Redman - Only played 60 games you wouldn’t expect him to go backwards

Snelling - Only played 42 games. Same as Redman.

Langford - Has consistently improved every year he’s been at Essendon

Agree that in all likelihood 2022 isn’t the year that the dons take a big step forward but it’s possible. Full years from Shiel, McGrath and Caldwell, a break out year from Draper and further improvement from Wright, Stewart, Laverde who have never had the chance to get a consistent run at in their career could be enough to push us up the ladder.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I think this a reasonable assessment for Carlton especially. It’s easy to see how all of Cripps, Williams, McGovern, Curnow and Martin could improve significantly this year. I think you’re overblowing Saad’s poor year he was still good maybe not quite as good as 2020 but still very good imo.

That being said I think a lot of the guys who you said had “career years” at Essendon would be still expected to improve maybe not dramatically but it’s not like they were some random unsustainable out of the box years.

Stewart - First year as a KPD and was improving significantly as the year went on. Knock on wood will complete his first full preseason at the club in years.

Laverde - similar to Stewart

Redman - Only played 60 games you wouldn’t expect him to go backwards

Snelling - Only played 42 games. Same as Redman.

Langford - Has consistently improved every year he’s been at Essendon

Agree that in all likelihood 2022 isn’t the year that the dons take a big step forward but it’s possible. Full years from Shiel, McGrath and Caldwell, a break out year from Draper and further improvement from Wright, Stewart, Laverde who have never had the chance to get a consistent run at in their career could be enough to push us up the ladder.

Definitely agree with that, but I believe their less dramatic natural improvement will be offset by the loss of Hooker and Tippa. I've disagreed with Dons fans on it but I really think those two are very big losses to the forward structure for this season. I think Jones is going to end up a very good player but wont be ready to shoulder the load with Wright just yet at competing vs the real big time defenders of the AFL. Hooker was a perfect stop gap but would have really helped if he could have lasted another season.

Also the Saad part, I agree he was more than fine this year but his years at Essendon in tandem with Mckenna would be what Blues fans would be hoping for. He really gave that team a lot of drive year round where as this season with the Blues he was a bit hit and miss due to what looked like some sort of knee injury he had taped for stages of the year.

With the assessment of both lists it then becomes a matter of;
1: If these players want to dig in and get themselves right for a big season collectively (I believe Truck has already got this going at the Bombers)
2: How quickly the young core at Essendon come through

If those players I mentioned all buy in for the year (which fingers crossed from pre season looks and sounds like they are) I can see Carlton leapfrogging the Dons temporarily and breaking into the 8. Then they would have to turn to the likes of Carroll, Kemp, Philp, Obrien, Dow, Cerra to find the next few gears and take us from simply making the 8 to contending which becomes another speculative situation.

And for the Dons, if Perkins, Cox, Jones etc make massive leaps in the next season or two they will likely shoot right up the ladder as their youth will come through in tandem with their senior core maintaining their primes. I would just be guessing but to me it looks like Perkins and Cox etc will be the types who take 3-4 years to find their spots as key contributors for the bombers evolving from the periphery players that they are right now in their first couple seasons.

The Bombers definitely have some nice youngsters coming through but I just get the feeling they will need to be heavy players this coming off season to find some key players to fill in the few gaps in their list that they have to also help develop their youngsters by having targets and big bodies around them. KPD and KPF being two big ones and a replacement for Heppell and Tippa for the coming seasons as they will eventually need to be squeezed out.

 

[Ambrosia]

Definitely agree with that, but I believe their less dramatic natural improvement will be offset by the loss of Hooker and Tippa. I've disagreed with Dons fans on it but I really think those two are very big losses to the forward structure for this season. I think Jones is going to end up a very good player but wont be ready to shoulder the load with Wright just yet at competing vs the real big time defenders of the AFL. Hooker was a perfect stop gap but would have really helped if he could have lasted another season.

Also the Saad part, I agree he was more than fine this year but his years at Essendon in tandem with Mckenna would be what Blues fans would be hoping for. He really gave that team a lot of drive year round where as this season with the Blues he was a bit hit and miss due to what looked like some sort of knee injury he had taped for stages of the year.

With the assessment of both lists it then becomes a matter of;
1: If these players want to dig in and get themselves right for a big season collectively (I believe Truck has already got this going at the Bombers)
2: How quickly the young core at Essendon come through

If those players I mentioned all buy in for the year (which fingers crossed from pre season looks and sounds like they are) I can see Carlton leapfrogging the Dons temporarily and breaking into the 8. Then they would have to turn to the likes of Carroll, Kemp, Philp, Obrien, Dow, Cerra to find the next few gears and take us from simply making the 8 to contending which becomes another speculative situation.

And for the Dons, if Perkins, Cox, Jones etc make massive leaps in the next season or two they will likely shoot right up the ladder as their youth will come through in tandem with their senior core maintaining their primes. I would just be guessing but to me it looks like Perkins and Cox etc will be the types who take 3-4 years to find their spots as key contributors for the bombers evolving from the periphery players that they are right now in their first couple seasons.

The Bombers definitely have some nice youngsters coming through but I just get the feeling they will need to be heavy players this coming off season to find some key players to fill in the few gaps in their list that they have to also help develop their youngsters by having targets and big bodies around them. KPD and KPF being two big ones and a replacement for Heppell and Tippa for the coming seasons as they will eventually need to be squeezed out.

You’re entitled to your opinion but I think you’re missing the full picture on Hooker. Yes he was a valuable target but he was a huge liability defensively and was dropped because of it. Our forward press actually started working once Hooker was dropped for Francis.

Tippa’s leave of absence is disappointing but but as a small forward he isn’t integral to our structure.

I mean if we’re talking significant outs then I’d say Liam Jones was far more critical to Carlton then either Hooker or Tippa who may still play plenty of footy this year.