MRP / Trib. Tribunal Thread - rules and offences discombobulation

[El_Scorcho]

The time from Rioli tackling Keane to spp arriving was approx 1 sec, the time when Keane was turned / turned and lowered into spp where he had to react to the change in circumstance was a fraction of that. Approx .20 -.30 of a second.


None of this is my opinion. It’s fact, and I laid it out in the screenshots with the time.

This is silly.

1 second is a very long reaction time for an elite athlete.

Your "0.2-0.3" seconds doesn't apply here because SPP wasn't blind to the contest, he had Keane and Rioli right in front of him and had full, open view of them throughout the incident. 0.3 seconds is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to react to something you're alert to and prepared for, especially when you're a professional sportsperson playing their sport. He's playing on instinct, but it's a honed, highly trained and practiced instinct.

He saw Keane spinning, he saw Rioli being tackled. The movements of Keane and Rioli weren't surprising or unreasonable.

He continued to move forward, didn't ever raise his arms as you'd do to protect yourself, he shaped to bump and did.

He had enough reaction time available to significantly lessen the force of the contact, but he was trying to bump. Once you do that, you have a duty of care to avoid hitting your opponent in the head.

 

[Doctor Feel]

SPP and PAFC the Heel to Collingwoods John Cena

 

[philreich]

As long as there is consistency all year.

View attachment 1913956

Yeah right - maybe SPP should wear a Braydon Maynard mask to the tribunal: it might result in a lighter sentence .

 

[Scodges]

So what time is the hanging, electric chair & lethal injection ?


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[HugeJohnson]

Those saying Daicos wouldn't get the same penalty are forgetting the fact that Daicos doesn't like contact and wouldn't be in the situation to begin with.

 

[Festerz]

1 second is a very long reaction time for an elite athlete.

With respect, how can you possibly make that statement unless you yourself are an elite athlete or have a PhD in sports science?

Can you please show us that one second of footage in real time?

As a mere mortal, I'd be very interested to see it to judge your clinical step by step assessment of what SPP did and what he should have done that is solely based on slo-mo and still footage and with the 20/20 perfect vision of hindsight.

Because what my view is, and the view of elite athletes who have played and coached the game like Nathan Buckley, is that YES, SPP DID have a choice, he did have options, but he chose what turned out to be the wrong one in hindsight as events played out within a fraction of a second. So he ultimately bears the consequences of the result under the rules of the game.

Even SPP freely admits he made the wrong choice. He will take a break from the game. That is a fact.

But, we need to remember that professional players are not friggin' plugnplay robots. This was the first competitive hit out in a game setting for all players in five months. As Buckley pointed out in the video I posted earlier, players get rusty after a long break and their instincts are not at the peak condition.

A mistake was made. In that one second of time, Sam Powell-Pepper zigged when he should have zagged.

Shoot the bastard.

But given that his name is brought up in every media story I have seen and heard of the SPP incident, I hope everyone remembers that Angus Brayshaw suffered 4 serious concussions in less than 12 months prior to his early retirement from the game last week. SPP was involved in none of them.

 

[Janus]

The thing I'd be focusing on if I was Powell-Pepper's advocate is the fact that he raised his left arm/hand and had it on or near Keane's shoulder a split second before the bump occurred, which signified his original intent was to tackle.



First panel, Powell-Pepper has his right arm at his side and his left forearm is extended away from his body - he has no intention to bump at this point and is in fact expecting to help Rioli in the tackle.

Second panel, his left arm is on Keane's right shoulder, which again signifies his original intent was to tackle - why would someone who is going to bump have their other arm out like this? - this is where he first realised that he is either going to have to protect himself or get cleaned up by Keane.

Third panel - again, Powell-Pepper either turns his body and bumps or allows Keane to clean him up.

Now, let's look at the contention that Powell-Pepper had time to do something else OTHER than bump.



Thankfully, we have the centre square line to give us an accurate mark as to perspective in this situation. And we can see that just before Rioli begins the tackle, Powell-Pepper is about two meters away from the contest. However, due to Keane's momentum and the Rioli tackle, that distance literally halves by the point of impact (the horizontal line is exactly the same size in both photos).

So unless you believe that Powell-Pepper is so smart that he could literally calculate exactly where Rioli's tackle was going to position Keane and that he believed at 18:44 he was going to be swung around the right to allow him to hit Keane at 18:45, combined with the fact that he had his left arm up to Keane's shoulder...it's very clear that it was just an accident and that bracing to bump should be graded as 'something a reasonable person would do in circumstances'...which means it cannot be graded as careless.

 

[VineValerian]

The thing I'd be focusing on if I was Powell-Pepper's advocate is the fact that he raised his left arm/hand and had it on or near Keane's shoulder a split second before the bump occurred, which signified his original intent was to tackle.

View attachment 1913971

First panel, Powell-Pepper has his right arm at his side and his left forearm is extended away from his body - he has no intention to bump at this point and is in fact expecting to help Rioli in the tackle.

Second panel, his left arm is on Keane's right shoulder, which again signifies his original intent was to tackle - why would someone who is going to bump have their other arm out like this? - this is where he first realised that he is either going to have to protect himself or get cleaned up by Keane.

Third panel - again, Powell-Pepper either turns his body and bumps or allows Keane to clean him up.

Now, let's look at the contention that Powell-Pepper had time to do something else OTHER than bump.

View attachment 1913994

Thankfully, we have the centre square line to give us an accurate mark as to perspective in this situation. And we can see that just before Rioli begins the tackle, Powell-Pepper is about two meters away from the contest. However, due to Keane's momentum and the Rioli tackle, that distance literally halves by the point of impact (the horizontal line is exactly the same size in both photos).

So unless you believe that Powell-Pepper is so smart that he could literally calculate exactly where Rioli's tackle was going to position Keane and that he believed at 18:44 he was going to be swung around the right to allow him to hit Keane at 18:45, combined with the fact that he had his left arm up to Keane's shoulder...it's very clear that it was just an accident and that bracing to bump should be graded as 'something a reasonable person would do in circumstances'...which means it cannot be graded as careless.

Pretty logical.
But then .......... what has logic ever had to do with the tribunal/MRP??

 

[Festerz]

He continued to move forward, didn't ever raise his arms as you'd do to protect yourself, he shaped to bump and did.

Like this you mean? (AFL Tribunal verdict: No case to answer).

 

[VineValerian]

The thing I'd be focusing on if I was Powell-Pepper's advocate is the fact that he raised his left arm/hand and had it on or near Keane's shoulder a split second before the bump occurred, which signified his original intent was to tackle.

View attachment 1913971

First panel, Powell-Pepper has his right arm at his side and his left forearm is extended away from his body - he has no intention to bump at this point and is in fact expecting to help Rioli in the tackle.

Second panel, his left arm is on Keane's right shoulder, which again signifies his original intent was to tackle - why would someone who is going to bump have their other arm out like this? - this is where he first realised that he is either going to have to protect himself or get cleaned up by Keane.

Third panel - again, Powell-Pepper either turns his body and bumps or allows Keane to clean him up.

Now, let's look at the contention that Powell-Pepper had time to do something else OTHER than bump.

View attachment 1913994

Thankfully, we have the centre square line to give us an accurate mark as to perspective in this situation. And we can see that just before Rioli begins the tackle, Powell-Pepper is about two meters away from the contest. However, due to Keane's momentum and the Rioli tackle, that distance literally halves by the point of impact (the horizontal line is exactly the same size in both photos).

So unless you believe that Powell-Pepper is so smart that he could literally calculate exactly where Rioli's tackle was going to position Keane and that he believed at 18:44 he was going to be swung around the right to allow him to hit Keane at 18:45, combined with the fact that he had his left arm up to Keane's shoulder...it's very clear that it was just an accident and that bracing to bump should be graded as 'something a reasonable person would do in circumstances'...which means it cannot be graded as careless.

And do you seriously believe our legal counsel, who have looked like blithering idiots time and again when defending our players, could fathom a logical and coherent narrative like this to match the chain of events that transpired, and give the adjudicator something to have to genuinely consider, instead of him just going with the old "duty of care" / no other reason - 6 matches outcome?

 

[Jonts]

If this is servere contact
Not knocked out cold
No broken bones

What is high?
What is moderate?

 

[gtrxuone]

Like this you mean? (AFL Tribunal verdict: No case to answer).

Good point you make their
After Maynard got off the Brayshaw insodent.With Brayshaw having to retire in the prime of his career.
Who know what will happen to SPP.

 

[philthy05]

This is silly.

1 second is a very long reaction time for an elite athlete.

Your "0.2-0.3" seconds doesn't apply here because SPP wasn't blind to the contest, he had Keane and Rioli right in front of him and had full, open view of them throughout the incident. 0.3 seconds is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to react to something you're alert to and prepared for, especially when you're a professional sportsperson playing their sport. He's playing on instinct, but it's a honed, highly trained and practiced instinct.

He saw Keane spinning, he saw Rioli being tackled. The movements of Keane and Rioli weren't surprising or unreasonable.

He continued to move forward, didn't ever raise his arms as you'd do to protect yourself, he shaped to bump and did.

He had enough reaction time available to significantly lessen the force of the contact, but he was trying to bump. Once you do that, you have a duty of care to avoid hitting your opponent in the head.

He had fractions of a second once Keane turned and lowered.

The idea that players should have powers of premonition to know this, or approach every contest with the idea the worst can happen is hogwash.


As I’ve said many times now, reaction testing of pushing a button on a phone your fingers hovering over sits around 0.2-0.35 seconds.


Spp is an athlete, not a superhuman.

 

[Festerz]

He had fractions of a second once Keane turned and lowered.

As I’ve said many times now, reaction testing of pushing a button on a phone your fingers hovering over sits around 0.2-0.35 seconds.

Spp is an athlete, not a superhuman.

Now that you mention it, it’s been quite a few weeks since I was bested at the traffic lights.

I think I might be one of those elite superhumans that the the AFL is looking for to play the game now. Added to that I have the proven ability to shirk a violent physical contest (purely out of concern for the welfare of others of course).

Where do I sign?

 

[It Just Is]

The thing I'd be focusing on if I was Powell-Pepper's advocate is the fact that he raised his left arm/hand and had it on or near Keane's shoulder a split second before the bump occurred, which signified his original intent was to tackle.

View attachment 1913971

First panel, Powell-Pepper has his right arm at his side and his left forearm is extended away from his body - he has no intention to bump at this point and is in fact expecting to help Rioli in the tackle.

Second panel, his left arm is on Keane's right shoulder, which again signifies his original intent was to tackle - why would someone who is going to bump have their other arm out like this? - this is where he first realised that he is either going to have to protect himself or get cleaned up by Keane.

Third panel - again, Powell-Pepper either turns his body and bumps or allows Keane to clean him up.

Now, let's look at the contention that Powell-Pepper had time to do something else OTHER than bump.

View attachment 1913994

Thankfully, we have the centre square line to give us an accurate mark as to perspective in this situation. And we can see that just before Rioli begins the tackle, Powell-Pepper is about two meters away from the contest. However, due to Keane's momentum and the Rioli tackle, that distance literally halves by the point of impact (the horizontal line is exactly the same size in both photos).

So unless you believe that Powell-Pepper is so smart that he could literally calculate exactly where Rioli's tackle was going to position Keane and that he believed at 18:44 he was going to be swung around the right to allow him to hit Keane at 18:45, combined with the fact that he had his left arm up to Keane's shoulder...it's very clear that it was just an accident and that bracing to bump should be graded as 'something a reasonable person would do in circumstances'...which means it cannot be graded as careless.

This is 100% how I see it.

 

[El_Scorcho]

He had fractions of a second once Keane turned and lowered.

The idea that players should have powers of premonition to know this, or approach every contest with the idea the worst can happen is hogwash.


As I’ve said many times now, reaction testing of pushing a button on a phone your fingers hovering over sits around 0.2-0.35 seconds.


Spp is an athlete, not a superhuman.

You don't need powers of premonition. He's played hundreds of games of footy and trained for countless hours more.

The narrative in this thread from some of you is like Keane did something unusual or that Rioli's tackle dramatically and unpredictably changed the course of the tackle to the point where SPP through absolutely no fault of his own ended up in a bumping position with his shoulder hitting an opponent's head.

SPP didn't have to avoid the collision, he just had to take some sort of step towards lessening the force, and instead he increased the force by allowing one of the hardest parts of his body hit Keane. Carelessness.

It's not 0.3 seconds reaction time. He's watching the contest, he knows how players getting tackled move, he's weighing up that contest from well before the footage we're being shown starts.

In any case, elite athletes deal with 0.3 seconds all the time. A slips catch when Starc is bowling. An MLB batter facing a 99MPH fastball. A goalkeeper facing a powerful shot in any sport that has goalkeepers. And SPP didn't even need to execute with that level of precision, he just needed to slow his movement slightly when it became clear he was going to make contact.

He didn't, because his plan was to hit the contest hard and knock the ball loose. He does it regularly. He's very good at it.

 

[dirty2]

Bad boy pepper.

 

[El_Scorcho]

So unless you believe that Powell-Pepper is so smart that he could literally calculate exactly where Rioli's tackle was going to position Keane...

Lmao this is just more of the "1 second" garbage.

SPP is absolutely that smart. At hard hitting contested footy, he's a genius. He's one of the top couple of dozen people on the planet at calculating where opponents and the ball are and where they'll end up in the fast paced dynamic environment of AFL level football.

SPP is more than smart enough to know that what he was doing was going to generate a heavy collision. He was trying to generate a heavy collision. He missed. It's careless.

 

[philthy05]

You don't need powers of premonition. He's played hundreds of games of footy and trained for countless hours more.

The narrative in this thread from some of you is like Keane did something unusual or that Rioli's tackle dramatically and unpredictably changed the course of the tackle to the point where SPP through absolutely no fault of his own ended up in a bumping position with his shoulder hitting an opponent's head.

SPP didn't have to avoid the collision, he just had to take some sort of step towards lessening the force, and instead he increased the force by allowing one of the hardest parts of his body hit Keane. Carelessness.

It's not 0.3 seconds reaction time. He's watching the contest, he knows how players getting tackled move, he's weighing up that contest from well before the footage we're being shown starts.

In any case, elite athletes deal with 0.3 seconds all the time. A slips catch when Starc is bowling. An MLB batter facing a 99MPH fastball. A goalkeeper facing a powerful shot in any sport that has goalkeepers. And SPP didn't even need to execute with that level of precision, he just needed to slow his movement slightly when it became clear he was going to make contact.

He didn't, because his plan was to hit the contest hard and knock the ball loose. He does it regularly. He's very good at it.

Spp can’t react to something before it happens no matter how much “elite athleting” he’s done.

Also, the stuff you’re saying about fastballs and slips catching isn’t helping your case.

You know what those things are? Not thought processes, that’s training something a million times so then it becomes a reflex, you know, like protecting yourself.

 

[philthy05]

Spp approaching contests






El_Scorcho


Try this test, let me know your results please.

Human Benchmark

humanbenchmark.com

A common result for me was around 300ms, give or take a few faster and slower.

When you do it, compare what you did (move your finger 1mm) to what you expect spp to do in that same time.





Now sure, spp had lead up time to the event to maybe prepare for POTENTIAL outcomes, but he still had approx 300 milliseconds once it eventuated.

Anyone who cares to take that test will surely understand that as fast as they managed to move their finger 1mm to touch a phone screen isn’t a whole lot of time to make decisions and execute while running at speed.

300ms is pure reflex action time and nothing else.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

lol what?

Have you been living under a rock?

How can you argue the afl has been consistent in its messaging about the bump and concussions in the same week a player has retired after a player took his head off and got let off by the tribunal.

That’s not a one off either, there’s a bunch of times the afl has gone back on its word in order to get a player off the hook.


Also I squashed the “elected to bump” beyond doubt earlier showing screenshots.


The time from Rioli tackling Keane to spp arriving was approx 1 sec, the time when Keane was turned / turned and lowered into spp where he had to react to the change in circumstance was a fraction of that. Approx .20 -.30 of a second.


None of this is my opinion. It’s fact, and I laid it out in the screenshots with the time.

I also laid out quite clearly for all the people at home that think he had plenty of time to react the standard reaction times. Anyone doubting me can look up reaction tests and do one themselves. Human reaction times on hitting a button on your screen that your finger is hovering 1mm above is around 0.2-0.35 secs.

The same amount of time spp has to react while travelling at around 30km hr.

He acted on instinct.

I emphasised MESSAGING - because yes, that has been their message even if they haven't been consistent with penalties.

And the Maynard thing? Guess what, the AFL sent him straight to the Tribunal where they argued he should get 3 weeks off. Which is the exact same thing they're doing with SPP. So how is that inconsistent?

Linking reaction tests to try and make your argument that SPP had no time to make a decision is close to going off the deep end. Take a breath and realise that this is the game now and this is what it's been for a while.

Maybe they will ban the bump in the future. The current rules and suspension risks certainly aren't enough to stop avoidable concussions. The proof is in the pudding there.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

I’m sorry, but if the rules state that the bump is legal, then the “ if you elect to bump” bullshit is so AFL amateur hour rule designed to suspend players, when the it’s legal to bump. Just doesn’t make sense. Ban the bump then.


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It's legal to tackle, but if you elect to tackle and take the opposition high it's a free kick. It's legal to tackle, but if you elect to tackle and it becomes a sling tackle you risk suspension if the player becomes concussed.

It's the exact same principle with the bump. Not sure why you see it in a different light.

 

[Scodges]

Lmao this is just more of the "1 second" garbage.

SPP is absolutely that smart. At hard hitting contested footy, he's a genius. He's one of the top couple of dozen people on the planet at calculating where opponents and the ball are and where they'll end up in the fast paced dynamic environment of AFL level football.

SPP is more than smart enough to know that what he was doing was going to generate a heavy collision. He was trying to generate a heavy collision. He missed. It's careless.

To the point of knocking out Rioli ? No, I’m not buying it.


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[philthy05]

I emphasised MESSAGING - because yes, that has been their message even if they haven't been consistent with penalties.

And the Maynard thing? Guess what, the AFL sent him straight to the Tribunal where they argued he should get 3 weeks off. Which is the exact same thing they're doing with SPP. So how is that inconsistent?

Linking reaction tests to try and make your argument that SPP had no time to make a decision is close to going off the deep end. Take a breath and realise that this is the game now and this is what it's been for a while.

Maybe they will ban the bump in the future. The current rules and suspension risks certainly aren't enough to stop avoidable concussions. The proof is in the pudding there.

1. Messaging isn’t saying one thing and doing another, it’s what they DO that is the messaging.

You really think the afl have been consistent with this?

2. Showing realistic human reaction times is factual evidence based argument that I’m offering.

It’s entirely relevant

 

[Scodges]

It's legal to tackle, but if you elect to tackle and take the opposition high it's a free kick. It's legal to tackle, but if you elect to tackle and it becomes a sling tackle you risk suspension if the player becomes concussed.

It's the exact same principle with the bump. Not sure why you see it in a different light.

A tackle & bump are not the same act, not even remotely. Let’s go back a decade or so , I’d rather be tackled by Byron Pickett, than face his truck like bumps.



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