List Mgmt. “It’s a form of tanking” the Richmond rebuild

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PhatBoy said:
In fairness his point was regarding having one big hand at one draft and just assuming that’s going to result in a raft of good picks when there’s past instances - from your club no less - where it hasn’t worked out that way. The Suns are another example. Equally as your own club has shown you might have years where you don’t have as many but you can ace it and you can set yourself up perfectly
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I disagree. If you read his opening line he was having a go at Richmond’s drafting history first, and then chose justify by highlighting a draft from 20 years ago as some sort of evidence, knowing full well the club has nailed plenty of picks post that draft.
Wojcinski said:
All great picks in their own right but they weren't selected in the same year were they?
Click to expand...
So you didn’t mean to say Richmond has a “really poor history at the draft”, but actually meant to say “once they had a lot of good draft picks and it didn’t work out for them and that was twenty years ago but I’m a troll so I think it’s still relevant”. Glad we cleared that up.
 
BF Tiger said:
I disagree. If you read his opening line he was having a go at Richmond’s drafting history first, and then chose justify by highlighting a draft from 20 years ago as some sort of evidence, knowing full well the club has nailed plenty of picks post that draft.

So you didn’t mean to say Richmond has a “really poor history at the draft”, but actually meant to say “once they had a lot of good draft picks and it didn’t work out for them and that was twenty years ago but I’m a troll so I think it’s still relevant”. Glad we cleared that up.
Click to expand...
Nah that's not what I meant and you know it
 

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dean33 said:
Difference being is we still have premiership players, nank, broad, Vlaustin, balta, lynch, Mcintosh, Prestia, short, plus experienced players like taranto and hopper to help guide the kids. What successful players from a winning culture did the blues have besides Judd? We also have Blair Hartley and Francis Jackson who were the architects of the dynasty, again who did Carlton have?
You are comparing a recent dynasty club with a club who has been in the wilderness for 30 years.
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This is just my opinion.

I am a bit shocked that Shai Bolton wants to be traded out and to head back to WA. Turns 26 in december. I can see richmond slowly build up again in 4 seasons. Finish bottom 4 in 2025 and 2026. Bottom 6 in 2027 with 9 or 10 or 11 wins. Then finals in 2028. Shai Bolton would be 30 by december of 2028.

Liam baker turns 27 in January. Baker isnt elite but he is a solid player. I would be giving him a 1 or 2 year extension and make him leverage the free agency rule for his next contract.

Daniel Rioli is another one. Yeah he turns 28 in April of next season but Richmond is happy to trade him despite 2 years left.


I would be trading one of those blokes not all 3.

No offense to richmond fans, its scarily similar rebuild to North Melbourne.

I have seen the dockers rebuild from 2016 to 2021. It was tough but I tolerated it. Dockers last finals win under ross lyon was in 2015 vs the swans. We had to rebuild around a 25 year old walters, a 24 year old fyfe and 30 year old mundy.

When the dockers won their next final in 2022 vs the dogs a 32 year old Michael Walters and 37 year old David mundy were the only 2 blokes left from the 2015 Qualifying final vs the swans. Fyfe didnt count as he didnt play in that 2022 elim final win due to injury.
 
Strapping Young Lad said:
It’s probably just me, but it’s quite amazing watching media types spur on Richmond to trade out as many senior players as possible to grab a bunch of kids after finishing last in 2024 with just 2 wins, considering that when Hawthorn traded out just the 2 senior players tanking allegations were leveled at the club for a good 8 months after trade week.

Richmond are quite likely looking at being as uncompetitive a team as we’ve seen in the last 15 years with the amount of experience headed out the door, and will be clear favourites for the 2025 wooden spoon.

After how many 15 goal beltings will the media flip on Richmond, compare their formline to Fitzroy’s last few years of heavy defeats and start using the “it’s a form of tanking” lines?
Click to expand...
We haven't asked anyone to leave at all. If you are a highly successful club like we were, you are penalized with low draft picks for years on end.
Besides that, Hawthorn did the exact same thing and were an uncompetitive rabble for years on end.
 
BF Tiger said:
It’s exactly what you stated. How else can it be interpreted when you highlight the failure of 2004 draft and ignore the successes since?
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I specified when Richmond had a draft hand like they'll have this year. Can you not read?
 
Freomaniac said:
This is just my opinion.

I am a bit shocked that Shai Bolton wants to be traded out and to head back to WA. Turns 26 in december. I can see richmond slowly build up again in 4 seasons. Finish bottom 4 in 2025 and 2026. Bottom 6 in 2027 with 9 or 10 or 11 wins. Then finals in 2028. Shai Bolton would be 30 by december of 2028.

Liam baker turns 27 in January. Baker isnt elite but he is a solid player. I would be giving him a 1 or 2 year extension and make him leverage the free agency rule for his next contract.

Daniel Rioli is another one. Yeah he turns 28 in April of next season but Richmond is happy to trade him despite 2 years left.


I would be trading one of those blokes not all 3.

No offense to richmond fans, its scarily similar rebuild to North Melbourne.

I have seen the dockers rebuild from 2016 to 2021. It was tough but I tolerated it. Dockers last finals win under ross lyon was in 2015 vs the swans. We had to rebuild around a 25 year old walters, a 24 year old fyfe and 30 year old mundy.

When the dockers won their next final in 2022 vs the dogs a 32 year old Michael Walters and 37 year old David mundy were the only 2 blokes left from the 2015 Qualifying final vs the swans. Fyfe didnt count as he didnt play in that 2022 elim final win due to injury.
Click to expand...
Fair points and I think that’s why we wouldn’t mind holding onto Bolton if we don’t get a really good deal, same with Rioli. Baker is a bit different as he’s not under contract, can’t really make him sign a 1-2 year contract as he wants to get home now.
This is supposed to be a very deep draft, the club sees the opportunity of getting 3-5 elite kids to propel the rebuild, we’ll add another few in 25 and then 26 as well. We are also a bit different to north as we do have around 8-10 very experienced premiership players still playing that will be there to help guide the kids.
I personally love this approach by the club and 100% agree with it, obviously there are no guarantees though and we’ll see in a few years if it was the right path to take.
 
Aristotle Pickett said:
We haven't asked anyone to leave at all. If you are a highly successful club like we were, you are penalized with low draft picks for years on end.
Besides that, Hawthorn did the exact same thing and were an uncompetitive rabble for years on end.
Click to expand...
You might need to read the post you’ve quoted again.

Hawthorn weren’t an uncompetitive rabble for years either.
 
Freomaniac said:
This is just my opinion.

I am a bit shocked that Shai Bolton wants to be traded out and to head back to WA. Turns 26 in december. I can see richmond slowly build up again in 4 seasons. Finish bottom 4 in 2025 and 2026. Bottom 6 in 2027 with 9 or 10 or 11 wins. Then finals in 2028. Shai Bolton would be 30 by december of 2028.

Liam baker turns 27 in January. Baker isnt elite but he is a solid player. I would be giving him a 1 or 2 year extension and make him leverage the free agency rule for his next contract.

Daniel Rioli is another one. Yeah he turns 28 in April of next season but Richmond is happy to trade him despite 2 years left.


I would be trading one of those blokes not all 3.

No offense to richmond fans, its scarily similar rebuild to North Melbourne.

I have seen the dockers rebuild from 2016 to 2021. It was tough but I tolerated it. Dockers last finals win under ross lyon was in 2015 vs the swans. We had to rebuild around a 25 year old walters, a 24 year old fyfe and 30 year old mundy.

When the dockers won their next final in 2022 vs the dogs a 32 year old Michael Walters and 37 year old David mundy were the only 2 blokes left from the 2015 Qualifying final vs the swans. Fyfe didnt count as he didnt play in that 2022 elim final win due to injury.
Click to expand...

At this point the Richmond rebuild doesn't look like any rebuild. We haven't seen a dynasty team retain its older layer of Premiership players, trade out some of its highest value players(in the immediate sense) and hit a strong draft with something like 6 round 1 picks including pick 1.

The pick 1(and consequently first pick in rd 2, first rookie draft pick, and first pre-season draft pick) didn't happen at other clubs because they didn't have Richmond's 2024 injury issues.

What Hawthorn did initially was trade out(essentially force out) Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge, and the much younger talent Ryan Burton. Their first draft hand of any real strength in 2019 included pick 13(Day) 29(Maginness.) Multiple rd 1 picks only came for them in 2022(7,18) and 2023(5,19.)

Fremantle were not what you would call a successful team under Lyon, but did make 1 Grand Final and I think had a separate Minor Premiership. Their first strong draft hand came in 2017, picks 2 & 5. Then 2019 with picks 7, 8, 9. Then 2021 with picks 8, 10, 21. And now 2024 where they have a strong hand in a strong draft and will likely leverage this to bring in at least one star player.

North never even beat a team that finished top 4 in any final. Their first hint of a strong draft hand was 2017 with picks 4, 23. 2020 they had 3 & 13 but frightfully weak and difficult draft. 2021 pick 1(who promptly left), 22. 2022 pick 2, 3. And finally 2023 with picks 2, 4, 20, 22, 23 as the AFL came to their rescue. They had no layer of players who have played in successful teams to lead. They had no layer of guns to trade out for high value picks. Their drafting stuttered, and only now they look like they might be on the up after drafting and retaining(so far) 7 rd 1 picks including 4 x top 4 picks in 2 years 2022-2023.

Blues, also no success prior and rebuilt by letting go moderate value players like Touhy and Henderson only. They probably did a bit better out of Gibbs.

The most recent team to genuinely build a team through the draft and win a flag is Melbourne. None of these teams above have actually achieved anything yet.

What Richmond are doing does not closely resemble any of these. The Tigers have already had a good hand in the strongish 2021 draft - picks 9, 17. Now in what looks a very strong 2024 draft, it will be something like 1, 7, 12, 13, 20, 23, 28. This is likely to be followed in short order by another pretty decent draft hand in 2025. By the time that 2025 draft is done Richmond will have likely 10 round 1 picks in 5 years into the club, including 2-3 top 4 picks, and another 1-2 top 10 picks. And those players will initialy at least be playing with and training beside and connecting to up to 8 premiership players, mainly multiple Premiership players, on a daily basis. If it fails it certainly won't be because it resembles what another club has done. In 3-4 years when the bulk of the older flag players will be finished, our young leaders will be coming through, and be joined no doubt by 2-3 free agents and 1-2 high priced recruits. Under the auspices of a list manager and footy manager and key recruiters who were also their through most or all of the build of the previous dynasty team. It is a unique situation.
 
Tanking is a bit of a stretch.
Pretty good arguement it gives Yze the best opportunity to build his team
for the way he wants to play or vice versa, whatever his gamestyle is gonna be.
Still no guarantee of million dollar players but it’s the best course of action outside of buying them which we aren’t in the position to do.
2015 Draft
# 2 Josh Schache (delisted)
# 4 Clayton Oliver. (Hmmm)
#5. Darcy Parish
#6. Aaron Francis
#7. Jacob Hopper

Oliver did contribute to a flag, but the others…?
Hopper was in the top 5 for GWS BnF every year after his draft year but he hasn’t been able to produce a quality season without high quality players around him.

Essendon 2020 three top ten picks and brought in 5 players
Nic Cox, Archie Perkins, Zach Reid, Josch Eyrie, Cody Brand.
Two of those have been cut, Perkins seems at the level and Cox is having trouble with staying on the park and maybe with the attention.
To be fair it was a shi.ty time to have those picks with no games being played with lockdowns.

Draft picks are the best option for Richmond but it’s a long way from a quality F/S, Priority pick, positioning for an quality Academy player which in my view are unfair advantages.
Tanking…pfft.
 
Cdog71 said:
Tanking is a bit of a stretch.
Pretty good arguement it gives Yze the best opportunity to build his team
for the way he wants to play or vice versa, whatever his gamestyle is gonna be.
Still no guarantee of million dollar players but it’s the best course of action outside of buying them which we aren’t in the position to do.
2015 Draft
# 2 Josh Schache (delisted)
# 4 Clayton Oliver. (Hmmm)
#5. Darcy Parish
#6. Aaron Francis
#7. Jacob Hopper

Oliver did contribute to a flag, but the others…?
Hopper was in the top 5 for GWS BnF every year after his draft year but he hasn’t been able to produce a quality season without high quality players around him.

Essendon 2020 three top ten picks and brought in 5 players
Nic Cox, Archie Perkins, Zach Reid, Josch Eyrie, Cody Brand.
Two of those have been cut, Perkins seems at the level and Cox is having trouble with staying on the park and maybe with the attention.
To be fair it was a shi.ty time to have those picks with no games being played with lockdowns.

Draft picks are the best option for Richmond but it’s a long way from a quality F/S, Priority pick, positioning for an quality Academy player which in my view are unfair advantages.
Tanking…pfft.
Click to expand...
Didn't Carlton get Curnow and McKay in this 2015 draft? Both were after Essendons pick 9?
 
Freomaniac said:
Didn't Carlton get Curnow and McKay in this 2015 draft? Both were after Essendons pick 9?
Click to expand...
And Weidering #1

I’m just illustrating the point there can still be a good amount of busts in the first round and as high draft picks.
 

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Wojcinski said:
I specified when Richmond had a draft hand like they'll have this year. Can you not read?
Click to expand...
Hmmm… see, what sticks in my head is that first line. And then as an example of Richmond’s poor draft history you use a draft from 20 years ago.
Wojcinski said:
Unlike Hawthorn, Richmond has a really poor history at the draft. The last time they had a draft hand like they'll have in 2024 they drafted;

ND:

1. Brett Deledio
4. Richard Tambling
12. Danny Meyer
16. Adam Pattison
20. Dean Polo
36. Luke McGuane
52. Dean Limbach
65. Mark Graham

PSD:
1. Trent Knobel
6. Ty Zantuck

Rookie:
1. Will Thursfield


I say let them 'tank' all they want
Click to expand...
I can read just fine. Maybe you need to work on your composition.
 
BF Tiger said:
Hmmm… see, what sticks in my head is that first line. And then as an example of Richmond’s poor draft history you use a draft from 20 years ago.

I can read just fine. Maybe you need to work on your composition.
Click to expand...
Literally the sentence after the one you highlighted. You'll get there eventually
 
Wojcinski said:
Literally the sentence after the one you highlighted. You'll get there eventually
Click to expand...

Then you don’t know how to construct a sentence properly. Your first comment was about our whole draft history (because it didn’t specifically refer to any year or period) followed by an example of a previous strong draft hand to try and highlight that we’ll probably f it up again with a similar draft hand.

What’s happened is you made an uneducated comment then backflipped cause you didn’t realise the good players we drafted with our first round and rookie picks.

It’s ok we all know it. Take the L and move on to your next troll. We forgive you.
 
Cleansweep17 said:
Then you don’t know how to construct a sentence properly. Your first comment was about our whole draft history (because it didn’t specifically refer to any year or period) followed by an example of a previous strong draft hand to try and highlight that we’ll probably f it up again with a similar draft hand.

What’s happened is you made an uneducated comment then backflipped cause you didn’t realise the good players we drafted with our first round and rookie picks.

It’s ok we all know it. Take the L and move on to your next troll. We forgive you.
Click to expand...
What the actual **** are you even talking about
 
Cleansweep17 said:
F mate you saying we don’t know how to draft. Wtf is wrong with you?
Click to expand...
I am saying that, yes. The last time Richmond had a draft hand like they will this year they completely dropped the ball. Not sure why I need to repeat myself to you over and over again
 
Wojcinski said:
I am saying that, yes. The last time Richmond had a draft hand like they will this year they completely dropped the ball. Not sure why I need to repeat myself to you over and over again
Click to expand...

So that one year means Richmond have never drafted well in their history. Despite drafting the premiership dynasty core.

I wonder how people think stupid things like that sometimes.
 
Cleansweep17 said:
So that one year means Richmond have never drafted well in their history. Despite drafting the premiership dynasty core.

I wonder how people think stupid things like that sometimes.
Click to expand...
Did I say they've never drafted well? I swear you have the comprehension capability of a loaf of bread.

Richmond did a great job drafting with priority picks
 
Wojcinski said:
Did I say they've never drafted well? I swear you have the comprehension capability of a loaf of bread.

Richmond did a great job drafting with priority picks
Click to expand...

No you didn’t in your initially post, you said we drafted poorly. You did not provide any examples of good trades.

Priory picks, Rance for 1 flag at pick 18? Yeah great pickup. That’s it.

You didn’t even scout for your f/s picks. You just got em because they were f/s. Your 3 single flag teams core was built by a fluke.
 
The Tigers just happen to be in the right place at the right time - well really bad at a point that works well for a total rebuild.

2024 was a self inflicted injury (poor list work in previous years), plus a ridiculous injury count, plus some sort of major coaching faff up. But if the players likely to be traded do go, then the tigers have about 1/2 of a premiership list + quite a few young guys who are entering their mature years. So the core of a solid team is there (not finals but mostly competitive)

Last place leaves the the Tigers with a good draft hand in a deep year.

Plus Rioli and Bolton are really wanted by clubs with a strong trade hand. Bolton is an awesome player and well worth a teens pick (more difficult trade now with the Hawks doing what they did). So the Tigers are just lucky to be a spot where teams want what they have to sell and so they can get a huge draft hand. Dumb arse luck really.

Also I think that the club woke up 1/2 way through 2024 and realised that they were delusional about the list. So the club decided to change up the coaching team and get ready for this trade period. Really just we were that bad. But by taking a strong strategic approach the club can do a massive quick rebuild whilst still having the players to support the young guys being brought in. In 4 years there should be a relatively mature list of younger players of high quality that is also well balanced. Sort of like a combo of an expansion team and a low middle team into one.

Get it right and the pain will lead to an amazing long term contenting team. Get it wrong and long term pain.
 
Meteoric Rise said:
At this point the Richmond rebuild doesn't look like any rebuild. We haven't seen a dynasty team retain its older layer of Premiership players, trade out some of its highest value players(in the immediate sense) and hit a strong draft with something like 6 round 1 picks including pick 1.

The pick 1(and consequently first pick in rd 2, first rookie draft pick, and first pre-season draft pick) didn't happen at other clubs because they didn't have Richmond's 2024 injury issues.

What Hawthorn did initially was trade out(essentially force out) Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge, and the much younger talent Ryan Burton. Their first draft hand of any real strength in 2019 included pick 13(Day) 29(Maginness.) Multiple rd 1 picks only came for them in 2022(7,18) and 2023(5,19.)

Fremantle were not what you would call a successful team under Lyon, but did make 1 Grand Final and I think had a separate Minor Premiership. Their first strong draft hand came in 2017, picks 2 & 5. Then 2019 with picks 7, 8, 9. Then 2021 with picks 8, 10, 21. And now 2024 where they have a strong hand in a strong draft and will likely leverage this to bring in at least one star player.

North never even beat a team that finished top 4 in any final. Their first hint of a strong draft hand was 2017 with picks 4, 23. 2020 they had 3 & 13 but frightfully weak and difficult draft. 2021 pick 1(who promptly left), 22. 2022 pick 2, 3. And finally 2023 with picks 2, 4, 20, 22, 23 as the AFL came to their rescue. They had no layer of players who have played in successful teams to lead. They had no layer of guns to trade out for high value picks. Their drafting stuttered, and only now they look like they might be on the up after drafting and retaining(so far) 7 rd 1 picks including 4 x top 4 picks in 2 years 2022-2023.

Blues, also no success prior and rebuilt by letting go moderate value players like Touhy and Henderson only. They probably did a bit better out of Gibbs.

The most recent team to genuinely build a team through the draft and win a flag is Melbourne. None of these teams above have actually achieved anything yet.

What Richmond are doing does not closely resemble any of these. The Tigers have already had a good hand in the strongish 2021 draft - picks 9, 17. Now in what looks a very strong 2024 draft, it will be something like 1, 7, 12, 13, 20, 23, 28. This is likely to be followed in short order by another pretty decent draft hand in 2025. By the time that 2025 draft is done Richmond will have likely 10 round 1 picks in 5 years into the club, including 2-3 top 4 picks, and another 1-2 top 10 picks. And those players will initialy at least be playing with and training beside and connecting to up to 8 premiership players, mainly multiple Premiership players, on a daily basis. If it fails it certainly won't be because it resembles what another club has done. In 3-4 years when the bulk of the older flag players will be finished, our young leaders will be coming through, and be joined no doubt by 2-3 free agents and 1-2 high priced recruits. Under the auspices of a list manager and footy manager and key recruiters who were also their through most or all of the build of the previous dynasty team. It is a unique situation.
Click to expand...

This :handpointup:

This is all by happenchance. Not a plan, until 1/2 way through the season. And good on the club for realising they were beyond the use by date and then by chance having players wanting out to GC (great picks) and West Australia (great picks). Now we have about 1/2 of a premiership team, young guys who are establishing themselves as mature solid AFL players and a bunch of high quality draft picks. So a team that should be competitive most of the time, but with an expansion team draft hand.
 
Cleansweep17 said:
No you didn’t in your initially post, you said we drafted poorly. You did not provide any examples of good trades.

Priory picks, Rance for 1 flag at pick 18? Yeah great pickup. That’s it.

You didn’t even scout for your f/s picks. You just got em because they were f/s. Your 3 single flag teams core was built by a fluke.
Click to expand...
Still can't read and now you're talking about Geelong for some reason. Stay on topic turbo
 

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List Mgmt. “It’s a form of tanking” the Richmond rebuild

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