List Mgmt. “It’s a form of tanking” the Richmond rebuild

[BF Tiger]

In fairness his point was regarding having one big hand at one draft and just assuming that’s going to result in a raft of good picks when there’s past instances - from your club no less - where it hasn’t worked out that way. The Suns are another example. Equally as your own club has shown you might have years where you don’t have as many but you can ace it and you can set yourself up perfectly

I disagree. If you read his opening line he was having a go at Richmond’s drafting history first, and then chose justify by highlighting a draft from 20 years ago as some sort of evidence, knowing full well the club has nailed plenty of picks post that draft.

All great picks in their own right but they weren't selected in the same year were they?

So you didn’t mean to say Richmond has a “really poor history at the draft”, but actually meant to say “once they had a lot of good draft picks and it didn’t work out for them and that was twenty years ago but I’m a troll so I think it’s still relevant”. Glad we cleared that up.

 

[Wojcinski]

I disagree. If you read his opening line he was having a go at Richmond’s drafting history first, and then chose justify by highlighting a draft from 20 years ago as some sort of evidence, knowing full well the club has nailed plenty of picks post that draft.

So you didn’t mean to say Richmond has a “really poor history at the draft”, but actually meant to say “once they had a lot of good draft picks and it didn’t work out for them and that was twenty years ago but I’m a troll so I think it’s still relevant”. Glad we cleared that up.

Nah that's not what I meant and you know it

 

[BF Tiger]

Nah that's not what I meant and you know it

It’s exactly what you stated. How else can it be interpreted when you highlight the failure of 2004 draft and ignore the successes since?

 

[Freomaniac]

Difference being is we still have premiership players, nank, broad, Vlaustin, balta, lynch, Mcintosh, Prestia, short, plus experienced players like taranto and hopper to help guide the kids. What successful players from a winning culture did the blues have besides Judd? We also have Blair Hartley and Francis Jackson who were the architects of the dynasty, again who did Carlton have?
You are comparing a recent dynasty club with a club who has been in the wilderness for 30 years.

This is just my opinion.

I am a bit shocked that Shai Bolton wants to be traded out and to head back to WA. Turns 26 in december. I can see richmond slowly build up again in 4 seasons. Finish bottom 4 in 2025 and 2026. Bottom 6 in 2027 with 9 or 10 or 11 wins. Then finals in 2028. Shai Bolton would be 30 by december of 2028.

Liam baker turns 27 in January. Baker isnt elite but he is a solid player. I would be giving him a 1 or 2 year extension and make him leverage the free agency rule for his next contract.

Daniel Rioli is another one. Yeah he turns 28 in April of next season but Richmond is happy to trade him despite 2 years left.


I would be trading one of those blokes not all 3.

No offense to richmond fans, its scarily similar rebuild to North Melbourne.

I have seen the dockers rebuild from 2016 to 2021. It was tough but I tolerated it. Dockers last finals win under ross lyon was in 2015 vs the swans. We had to rebuild around a 25 year old walters, a 24 year old fyfe and 30 year old mundy.

When the dockers won their next final in 2022 vs the dogs a 32 year old Michael Walters and 37 year old David mundy were the only 2 blokes left from the 2015 Qualifying final vs the swans. Fyfe didnt count as he didnt play in that 2022 elim final win due to injury.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

It’s probably just me, but it’s quite amazing watching media types spur on Richmond to trade out as many senior players as possible to grab a bunch of kids after finishing last in 2024 with just 2 wins, considering that when Hawthorn traded out just the 2 senior players tanking allegations were leveled at the club for a good 8 months after trade week.

Richmond are quite likely looking at being as uncompetitive a team as we’ve seen in the last 15 years with the amount of experience headed out the door, and will be clear favourites for the 2025 wooden spoon.

After how many 15 goal beltings will the media flip on Richmond, compare their formline to Fitzroy’s last few years of heavy defeats and start using the “it’s a form of tanking” lines?

We haven't asked anyone to leave at all. If you are a highly successful club like we were, you are penalized with low draft picks for years on end.
Besides that, Hawthorn did the exact same thing and were an uncompetitive rabble for years on end.

 

[HugeJohnson]

David King advocating that Tigers should trade Lynch, because apparently if you don’t you’re “half pregnant in your rebuild”.

David King has a massive head aye, I reckon his noggin' could possibly be preggo too. Gorilla head. There's a little baby Kingy sitting in that skull looking for the exit, poor thing. That's why he talks so much shit, gotta get rid of the baby's waste somehow.
A friend of mine works quite high up in a Melbourne hospital and has given me this information so I know for a fact that it's true.

 

[QuietB]

Damien Barrett is that dumb that I’m surprised he can walk and breathe at the same time.

I’ve never seen him do it

 

[Wojcinski]

It’s exactly what you stated. How else can it be interpreted when you highlight the failure of 2004 draft and ignore the successes since?

I specified when Richmond had a draft hand like they'll have this year. Can you not read?

 

[dean33]

This is just my opinion.

I am a bit shocked that Shai Bolton wants to be traded out and to head back to WA. Turns 26 in december. I can see richmond slowly build up again in 4 seasons. Finish bottom 4 in 2025 and 2026. Bottom 6 in 2027 with 9 or 10 or 11 wins. Then finals in 2028. Shai Bolton would be 30 by december of 2028.

Liam baker turns 27 in January. Baker isnt elite but he is a solid player. I would be giving him a 1 or 2 year extension and make him leverage the free agency rule for his next contract.

Daniel Rioli is another one. Yeah he turns 28 in April of next season but Richmond is happy to trade him despite 2 years left.


I would be trading one of those blokes not all 3.

No offense to richmond fans, its scarily similar rebuild to North Melbourne.

I have seen the dockers rebuild from 2016 to 2021. It was tough but I tolerated it. Dockers last finals win under ross lyon was in 2015 vs the swans. We had to rebuild around a 25 year old walters, a 24 year old fyfe and 30 year old mundy.

When the dockers won their next final in 2022 vs the dogs a 32 year old Michael Walters and 37 year old David mundy were the only 2 blokes left from the 2015 Qualifying final vs the swans. Fyfe didnt count as he didnt play in that 2022 elim final win due to injury.

Fair points and I think that’s why we wouldn’t mind holding onto Bolton if we don’t get a really good deal, same with Rioli. Baker is a bit different as he’s not under contract, can’t really make him sign a 1-2 year contract as he wants to get home now.
This is supposed to be a very deep draft, the club sees the opportunity of getting 3-5 elite kids to propel the rebuild, we’ll add another few in 25 and then 26 as well. We are also a bit different to north as we do have around 8-10 very experienced premiership players still playing that will be there to help guide the kids.
I personally love this approach by the club and 100% agree with it, obviously there are no guarantees though and we’ll see in a few years if it was the right path to take.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

We haven't asked anyone to leave at all. If you are a highly successful club like we were, you are penalized with low draft picks for years on end.
Besides that, Hawthorn did the exact same thing and were an uncompetitive rabble for years on end.

You might need to read the post you’ve quoted again.

Hawthorn weren’t an uncompetitive rabble for years either.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

This is just my opinion.

I am a bit shocked that Shai Bolton wants to be traded out and to head back to WA. Turns 26 in december. I can see richmond slowly build up again in 4 seasons. Finish bottom 4 in 2025 and 2026. Bottom 6 in 2027 with 9 or 10 or 11 wins. Then finals in 2028. Shai Bolton would be 30 by december of 2028.

Liam baker turns 27 in January. Baker isnt elite but he is a solid player. I would be giving him a 1 or 2 year extension and make him leverage the free agency rule for his next contract.

Daniel Rioli is another one. Yeah he turns 28 in April of next season but Richmond is happy to trade him despite 2 years left.


I would be trading one of those blokes not all 3.

No offense to richmond fans, its scarily similar rebuild to North Melbourne.

I have seen the dockers rebuild from 2016 to 2021. It was tough but I tolerated it. Dockers last finals win under ross lyon was in 2015 vs the swans. We had to rebuild around a 25 year old walters, a 24 year old fyfe and 30 year old mundy.

When the dockers won their next final in 2022 vs the dogs a 32 year old Michael Walters and 37 year old David mundy were the only 2 blokes left from the 2015 Qualifying final vs the swans. Fyfe didnt count as he didnt play in that 2022 elim final win due to injury.

At this point the Richmond rebuild doesn't look like any rebuild. We haven't seen a dynasty team retain its older layer of Premiership players, trade out some of its highest value players(in the immediate sense) and hit a strong draft with something like 6 round 1 picks including pick 1.

The pick 1(and consequently first pick in rd 2, first rookie draft pick, and first pre-season draft pick) didn't happen at other clubs because they didn't have Richmond's 2024 injury issues.

What Hawthorn did initially was trade out(essentially force out) Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge, and the much younger talent Ryan Burton. Their first draft hand of any real strength in 2019 included pick 13(Day) 29(Maginness.) Multiple rd 1 picks only came for them in 2022(7,18) and 2023(5,19.)

Fremantle were not what you would call a successful team under Lyon, but did make 1 Grand Final and I think had a separate Minor Premiership. Their first strong draft hand came in 2017, picks 2 & 5. Then 2019 with picks 7, 8, 9. Then 2021 with picks 8, 10, 21. And now 2024 where they have a strong hand in a strong draft and will likely leverage this to bring in at least one star player.

North never even beat a team that finished top 4 in any final. Their first hint of a strong draft hand was 2017 with picks 4, 23. 2020 they had 3 & 13 but frightfully weak and difficult draft. 2021 pick 1(who promptly left), 22. 2022 pick 2, 3. And finally 2023 with picks 2, 4, 20, 22, 23 as the AFL came to their rescue. They had no layer of players who have played in successful teams to lead. They had no layer of guns to trade out for high value picks. Their drafting stuttered, and only now they look like they might be on the up after drafting and retaining(so far) 7 rd 1 picks including 4 x top 4 picks in 2 years 2022-2023.

Blues, also no success prior and rebuilt by letting go moderate value players like Touhy and Henderson only. They probably did a bit better out of Gibbs.

The most recent team to genuinely build a team through the draft and win a flag is Melbourne. None of these teams above have actually achieved anything yet.

What Richmond are doing does not closely resemble any of these. The Tigers have already had a good hand in the strongish 2021 draft - picks 9, 17. Now in what looks a very strong 2024 draft, it will be something like 1, 7, 12, 13, 20, 23, 28. This is likely to be followed in short order by another pretty decent draft hand in 2025. By the time that 2025 draft is done Richmond will have likely 10 round 1 picks in 5 years into the club, including 2-3 top 4 picks, and another 1-2 top 10 picks. And those players will initialy at least be playing with and training beside and connecting to up to 8 premiership players, mainly multiple Premiership players, on a daily basis. If it fails it certainly won't be because it resembles what another club has done. In 3-4 years when the bulk of the older flag players will be finished, our young leaders will be coming through, and be joined no doubt by 2-3 free agents and 1-2 high priced recruits. Under the auspices of a list manager and footy manager and key recruiters who were also their through most or all of the build of the previous dynasty team. It is a unique situation.

 

[Cdog71]

Tanking is a bit of a stretch.
Pretty good arguement it gives Yze the best opportunity to build his team
for the way he wants to play or vice versa, whatever his gamestyle is gonna be.
Still no guarantee of million dollar players but it’s the best course of action outside of buying them which we aren’t in the position to do.
2015 Draft
# 2 Josh Schache

19

Josh Schache

Age

27

Ht

199cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.8

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.3

3star

G

1.2

4star

D

6.5

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

2.5

2star

M

1.5

2star

T

0.0

1star

G

1.0

4star

D

10.2

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.2

4star

G

0.8

4star

(delisted)
# 4 Clayton Oliver

13

Clayton Oliver

Age

27

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.8

5star

K

9.5

4star

HB

18.4

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

6.3

5star

CL

6.3

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

11.1

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.6

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

19.2

5star

K

4.6

2star

HB

14.6

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

4.4

5star

CL

3.8

5star

. (Hmmm)
#5. Darcy Parish

3

Darcy Parish

Age

27

Ht

180cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.4

5star

K

9.2

4star

HB

11.2

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

3.3

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

16.6

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

9.1

5star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.0

3star

CL

3.1

4star

D

22.2

5star

K

7.6

3star

HB

14.6

5star

M

3.2

4star

T

4.4

5star

CL

3.6

5star

#6. Aaron Francis
#7. Jacob Hopper

22

Jacob Hopper

Age

27

Ht

187cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.0

5star

K

9.9

4star

HB

11.1

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

4.5

5star

CL

4.3

5star

D

17.6

4star

K

8.8

4star

HB

8.9

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

4.6

5star

CL

4.0

5star

D

18.6

5star

K

8.4

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.8

5star

CL

3.4

5star

Oliver did contribute to a flag, but the others…?
Hopper was in the top 5 for GWS BnF every year after his draft year but he hasn’t been able to produce a quality season without high quality players around him.

Essendon 2020 three top ten picks and brought in 5 players
Nic Cox, Archie Perkins, Zach Reid, Josch Eyrie, Cody Brand.
Two of those have been cut, Perkins seems at the level and Cox is having trouble with staying on the park and maybe with the attention.
To be fair it was a shi.ty time to have those picks with no games being played with lockdowns.

Draft picks are the best option for Richmond but it’s a long way from a quality F/S, Priority pick, positioning for an quality Academy player which in my view are unfair advantages.
Tanking…pfft.

 

[Freomaniac]

Tanking is a bit of a stretch.
Pretty good arguement it gives Yze the best opportunity to build his team
for the way he wants to play or vice versa, whatever his gamestyle is gonna be.
Still no guarantee of million dollar players but it’s the best course of action outside of buying them which we aren’t in the position to do.
2015 Draft
# 2 Josh Schache (delisted)
# 4 Clayton Oliver. (Hmmm)
#5. Darcy Parish
#6. Aaron Francis
#7. Jacob Hopper

Oliver did contribute to a flag, but the others…?
Hopper was in the top 5 for GWS BnF every year after his draft year but he hasn’t been able to produce a quality season without high quality players around him.

Essendon 2020 three top ten picks and brought in 5 players
Nic Cox, Archie Perkins, Zach Reid, Josch Eyrie, Cody Brand.
Two of those have been cut, Perkins seems at the level and Cox is having trouble with staying on the park and maybe with the attention.
To be fair it was a shi.ty time to have those picks with no games being played with lockdowns.

Draft picks are the best option for Richmond but it’s a long way from a quality F/S, Priority pick, positioning for an quality Academy player which in my view are unfair advantages.
Tanking…pfft.

Didn't Carlton get Curnow and McKay in this 2015 draft? Both were after Essendons pick 9?

 

[Cdog71]

Didn't Carlton get Curnow and McKay in this 2015 draft? Both were after Essendons pick 9?

And Weidering #1

I’m just illustrating the point there can still be a good amount of busts in the first round and as high draft picks.

 

[BF Tiger]

I specified when Richmond had a draft hand like they'll have this year. Can you not read?

Hmmm… see, what sticks in my head is that first line. And then as an example of Richmond’s poor draft history you use a draft from 20 years ago.

Unlike Hawthorn, Richmond has a really poor history at the draft. The last time they had a draft hand like they'll have in 2024 they drafted;

ND:

1. Brett Deledio
4. Richard Tambling
12. Danny Meyer
16. Adam Pattison
20. Dean Polo
36. Luke McGuane
52. Dean Limbach
65. Mark Graham

PSD:
1. Trent Knobel
6. Ty Zantuck

Rookie:
1. Will Thursfield


I say let them 'tank' all they want

I can read just fine. Maybe you need to work on your composition.

 

[Wojcinski]

Hmmm… see, what sticks in my head is that first line. And then as an example of Richmond’s poor draft history you use a draft from 20 years ago.

I can read just fine. Maybe you need to work on your composition.

Literally the sentence after the one you highlighted. You'll get there eventually