Discussion 2012 List Management: De-Listings, Trades, Drafting & Free Agency

[Defacto]

I certainly don't hate him and he could be worth getting for a club that don't already have about 7 or 8 similar options for the position he plays in, but we do, so I think it would be a pretty poor idea for us to draft him, given we have more pressing needs to address than the role he plays.

About the only way I'd be OK with it would be if everyone else we were interested in was gone by our pick. Otherwise, I just don't see how he would get a game ahead of Fisher, Gwilt, Gilbert, Simpkin, Dempster, Siposs, or Dunell and that he wouldn't stunt the progress of the likes of Webster and Murdoch, if he was brought in.

It's a big no from me, from a structure and list balance point of view.

well said. i'd only draft roberton if he played for sandi for a year or two and absolutely smashed the door down to be drafted

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

lol. they are two peas in a pod. roberton was just gifted more games. our backline has been more stable than freos.

roberton is softer than soft.

Our backline more stable than Freo's?

Losing Zac.
Sam Fisher injured for 6 weeks. Then had to come back and play Key Position rather than loose.
Blake injured for 6 weeks, otherwise spending time in the ruck.
Gwilt coming back from a knee reco, not in the best form.
Gilbert's form been all over the place the past couple years.
Simpkin trying to cement his spot.
Gram injured a bit and then came back to playing a much more defensive game.

In fact I think Dempster (and Geary of 2012) have been the only solid cogs in our largely dysfunctional backline the last couple years.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Our backline more stable than Freo's?

Losing Zac.
Sam Fisher injured for 6 weeks. Then had to come back and play Key Position rather than loose.
Blake injured for 6 weeks, otherwise spending time in the ruck.
Gwilt coming back from a knee reco, not in the best form.
Gilbert's form been all over the place the past couple years.
Simpkin trying to cement his spot.
Gram injured a bit and then came back to playing a much more defensive game.

In fact I think Dempster (and Geary of 2012) have been the only solid cogs in our largely dysfunctional backline the last couple years.

When you mention all that stuff , I'd consider that its been amazingly functional.

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

When you mention all that stuff , I'd consider that its been amazingly functional.

Yeah I think dysfunctional might have been the wrong word. But it's the only one that came to mind at the time

Maybe disrupted would have worked better.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Roberton might be a bit of a loss for Freo now, given that McPhee has also left them. I imagine Roverton would have been well in the mix to replace him.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Agree, and he was the one dropped in 2011 when we struggling with clearances and stoppages.

Avatar = GOLD.

 

[Defacto]

When you mention all that stuff , I'd consider that its been amazingly functional.

its been stable though in terms of the players we've played there compared to freo. freo have a number of players they have tried out. IMO roberton would have a better chance at getting a game at freo than the saints. likewise winmar would have had a better chance of getting a game at freo than the saints as a HBF

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

Why the hell would we take another utility like Roberton or Cockie when we now have the chance to give a rookie spot to a large FB which for different reasons we still do not have. Who was that guy from Tassie we posted on here about recently? Did he get picked up in the draft? Any chance those types are nominating?

 

[_Maximus_12]

I think the question we need to ask when recruiting any mature agers that aren't FBs is would they get on the list of any other top 8 club? In Roberton's instance, I think not. (obviously not including Freo)
That being the case, why waste our time picking him up.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Why do people continue to think Picking up a Mature Aged KPD or Young KPD will fix out worries? Do you guys think they'll kill the best KPF in the league straight away or something? There is no doubt we are waiting until next years trade period/Free Agency to get that KPD we want. Not like Tippett, Hartigan, Wells are going to become decent KPD in there first year!

I don't think anyone has the view that picking up a KPD will solve our issues, but I think most feel that given we have addressed it as a hole on our list, we would be better off taking the risk to fill that hole rather than waste a pick on a player surplus to our needs.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

I don't think anyone has the view that picking up a KPD will solve our issues, but I think most feel that given we have addressed it as a hole on our list, we would be better off taking the risk to fill that hole rather than waste a pick on a player surplus to our needs.

Shenton on the plane with the team, Wonder if Staley + Minchington were aswell. Could see them 2 delisted to get Cockie, Roberton (Hope not) or a KPD?

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

I don't think anyone has the view that picking up a KPD will solve our issues, but I think most feel that given we have addressed it as a hole on our list, we would be better off taking the risk to fill that hole rather than waste a pick on a player surplus to our needs.

I am one that does think picking up a proper full back will address some of our immediate problems. I also think that if we had a proper FB we would have also played finals last year. I can't see us winning enough games to play finals with out one. We were horribly caught out last season, do you guys really forget all those games we lost when Blake wasn't playing or when Fish was out or McEvoy and Blake had to play ruck. It was our biggest hole and losing BJ ang Gram only excentuates the problem in the immediate future.
I accept the strategy to pick best available by our team in the draft. But now if we have a chance to pick up a proper FB as a rookie, and we pass the opportunity for more utillities then I think its just absurd.
You can't say we'll just get one in 2014 or 2015, thats 2 preseasons they could have been training if we get one now.

 

[Defacto]

I don't think anyone has the view that picking up a KPD will solve our issues, but I think most feel that given we have addressed it as a hole on our list, we would be better off taking the risk to fill that hole rather than waste a pick on a player surplus to our needs.

we will add a senior player to our list to replace winmar. i dont think there is a KPD available thats worth adding to the list. even the young talent that was skipped over in the draft isnt that great.

especially when next year is a bumper crop of KPP

 

[Defacto]

I am one that does think picking up a proper full back will address some of our immediate problems. I also think that if we had a proper FB we would have also played finals last year. I can't see us winning enough games to play finals with out one. We were horribly caught out last season, do you guys really forget all those games we lost when Blake wasn't playing or when Fish was out or McEvoy and Blake had to play ruck. It was our biggest hole and losing BJ ang Gram only excentuates the problem in the immediate future.
I accept the strategy to pick best available by our team in the draft. But now if we have a chance to pick up a proper FB as a rookie, and we pass the opportunity for more utillities then I think its just absurd.
You can't say we'll just get one in 2014 or 2015, thats 2 preseasons they could have been training if we get one now.

so who would you select?

 

[aussierulesrules]

so who would you select?

I would roll the dice on Tippett if we think he is any chance of succeeding long term, or even just giving us something better next year, especially if there is no-one else available at our pick that we reckon would give us much more than simply depth in any area (with minimal likelihood of a long term career). He is apparently that 196/197cm we are looking for, to play on the likes of Kurt Tippett, Mitch Clark, Petrie, Dean Cox, etc and there is every chance that he could actually succeed, given that he is not only an excellent height, but that he is also reportedly fast and athletic.

He's spent at least two years in the AFL system previously, has even played a couple of senior AFL games and as they say, "most big guys take time" and he reportedly really blossomed this year in the SANFL, at the age of 23. It could just be that he is one of those who blossom later than some others and that while he might not have been ready previously, he may just be ready now. From what I've read he hardly got beaten this year, if at all (for a game).

Lets not forget that we picked up Zac Dawson in the rookie or pre season draft, after, like Joel, he'd been cut from an AFL list and Zac came straight in to a team that had played a prelim the year before and did so well that he kept Max Hudghton out of the side that year.

I'm not expecting that Joel will come in and start dominating the Tom Hawkins of the AFL, but if there is a likelihood that he would at least give us more of a contest there than we had this year, then he could be well and truly worth picking up.

If all the bags of 5 and 4 that were kicked on us this year became bags of 4 and 3 next year, as a result of Tippett being slightly more competitive than whoever we had on them this year was, as well as also freeing up the likes of Fisher, to do what they do best, then I would see that as a definite win and could be well and truly worth using a PSD pick on him.

Lets not forget the alternative. And that alternative, as well as possibly getting smashed at FB again next year, after we apparently offered up picks 25 and 26, plus Cripps, for Mitch Brown, this year, is that we may end up having to offer up our first round DP again, to get Mitch Brown, as well as paying him north of $350K per year. And by the sounds of it Mitch Brown has not exactly outperformed Joel Tippett in the state league this year, so they may be roughly equivalent as far as ability goes, yet one will cost us just a PSD pick and minimal money, while the other we will most likely have to pay through the nose for, both money wise and draft picks wise. Mitch may be out of contract next year, but othr clubs might be interested by then, so we may still have to offer up a lot to get him and I would personally prefer to use our first DP next year on one of the highly rated 18yo KPP's, if we find that Tippett has been serviceable enough for us at FB.

With all that being the case, I imagine I wouldn't hesitate to draft Tippett if he is available at our pick and we believe there is a strong likelihood that he can be competitive enough at full back to be worth having in our senior side.

We don't need him to be great next year, we just need him to be better than the alternatives and for him to play the role Dawson did (preferably better) and free up the others to do what they do best.

 

[saintsrfreak]

Or we could just manipulate the draft Collingwood style and get Brown for nothing

 

[aussierulesrules]

Unless we get Brown in the PSD next year, he would still cost us a reasonably useful national draft pick, if not our first national DP and if there is a chance that Tippett might be just as good as him, then I'd much rather get him for just a PSD pick this year, have him for next year as a bonus and if he works out well, be able to use that national draft pick next year on someone else we really want, plus have that $350K we allocated for Brown available to go after someone else that we might be really keen on.

 

[saintsrfreak]

Unless we get Brown in the PSD next year, he would still cost us a reasonably useful national draft pick, if not our first national DP and if there is a chance that Tippett might be just as good as him, then I'd much rather get him for just a PSD pick this year, have him for next year as a bonus and if he works out well, be able to use that national draft pick next year on someone else we really want, plus have that $350K we allocated for Brown available to go after someone else that we might be really keen on.

Or we could get him to place a $1mil over 2 year price on his head, and then sign him for $1mil over 3. Collingwood screwed us like that, West Coast screwed us with Cripps, this is our chance to get some payback.

 

[aussierulesrules]

So are you suggesting that we shouldn't draft Tippett this year, with just a pick in the PSD, if we believe that he could be just as effective as Brown would have been, (or that he would at least be better than the alternatives we have on our list at present), just so that we can pay Brown $1mil over 3 years from 2014 onwards, to get some payback, and be without a potentially suitable option at FB again next year, who comes at a fraction of the price?

 

[saintsrfreak]

So are you suggesting that we shouldn't draft Tippett this year, with just a pick in the PSD, if we believe that he could be just as effective as Brown would have been, (or that he would at least be better than the alternatives we have on our list at present), just so that we can pay Brown $1mil over 3 years from 2014 onwards, to get some payback, and be without a potentially suitable option at FB again next year, who comes at a fraction of the price?

Nope, I'm all for picking up a mature age defender now as a stopgap until Brown is available. FWIW I think Brown would clearly be better than Tippett.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Just trade with West Coast. They can take pick 36 ( assumption there ) for him or lose him for nothing.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Our backline more stable than Freo's?

Losing Zac.
Sam Fisher injured for 6 weeks. Then had to come back and play Key Position rather than loose.
Blake injured for 6 weeks, otherwise spending time in the ruck.
Gwilt coming back from a knee reco, not in the best form.
Gilbert's form been all over the place the past couple years.
Simpkin trying to cement his spot.
Gram injured a bit and then came back to playing a much more defensive game.

In fact I think Dempster (and Geary of 2012) have been the only solid cogs in our largely dysfunctional backline the last couple years.

Very well put. I think all of the above gets lost when us fans (and maybe even the coaches) think "must get KPD at all cost." I believe that, injuries, form and Watters' game plan permitting, our backline already has the parts needed to succeed. We often forget just how disrupted it has been over the past couple of years when we assess our needs. I'm very positive about this year whether we get a Joel Tippet or not.

 

[_Maximus_12]

My view is - currently we have to the opportunity to recruit a guy who could thrive with the opportunity to play FB and it will cost us next to nothing.
Worst case scenario, he doesn't come on like we'd hoped and we delist him at seasons end before selecting someone in the FA period.
We said we'd go into the National Draft with a best available approach, well now I think it's the right time to address our needs for next to nothing.

 

[tbarker]

I still think the biggest issue is Macca. I doubt it's a coincidence that our clearances have fallen off a off since he became our number 1 man. We were struggling in the clearances even before Lenny did his knee in 2011, when before that we had Gardiner and King putting it down our guys throats. No doubt he's improving, but he needs to take massive steps forward if we're going to be competitive in the clearances again. It's almost irrelevant who's in the middle if the opposition ruckmen is tapping it directly to his midfielders.

But yeah like I said before, it can't hurt to just give him a run in there and see how he goes.

Yeah - unfortunately you are spot on. Big Boy's form was poor and the whole team suffered. It was his ruckwork - he got murdered in several games.

 

[tbarker]

Did anyone else notice what Sam Cheeseburger said about Spencer White's wrist the other day? I noticed it in passing the other day, but when I googled it ("Spencer White Western Jets wrist") just before, it looks like it's been removed from the article, although on the main google page you can still see some of what he originally wrote: "while Spencer White at 25 also shocked some given a wrist injury he's ...."

Anyone heard anything about this? I see in the new photo of him on the St Kilda Facebook page that he has some bandaging/tape on his wrist, but I take it by the fact he's deleted that part from his article that there wasn't much in it?

Yeah - I saw the article and went back through the tape. Glad you mentioned it. If you look at the initial interviews with the draftees, White is in the background with a cast on his forearm. Check out this video with Wright http://www.saints.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/5315/newsid/151667/default.aspx suspect that they deliberately didn't interview him until the cast was off or they decided not to show it and interviewed him the next day. Then when he is interviewed by Holmesby he has his hands behind his back the whole time. My mail is that he had an operation on the tendon but that mail is not always good so sorry - don't know any more than that.