List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part III

George · Aug 24, 2021

Delisted;
Oscar Clavarino
Sam Alabakis
Jack Lonie
Paul Hunter

Traded;
Luke Dunstan

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Dylan Roberton
Shaun McKernan
James Frawley

To see the full playing list list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...

www.bigfooty.com

Restricted and Unrestricted Free Agency Window
Friday October 1 – Friday October 8

Trade Period
Players: Monday October 4 – Wednesday October 13
Picks: Monday October 4 – Monday November 15

List Lodgement 1
Friday October 29

Delisted Free Agency Window 1
Wednesday November 3 - Tuesday November 9

List Lodgement 2 (Final date for primary list delistings)
Wednesday November 10

Delisted Free Agency Window 2
Thursday November 11 - Monday November 15

AFL Pre-Season Commences (First to fourth year players)
Monday November 22

National Draft
Round 1: Wednesday November 24 (7pm)
Round 2 – completion: Thursday November 25 (7pm - late)

Preseason and Rookie Drafts
Friday November 26 (3.20pm)

Final List Lodgement
Monday November 29

Pre-Season Commences (All other players)
Monday 6 December

Pre-Season Supplemental Selection Period (SSP)
December - March (tbc)

Pre-Season Christmas Break
Sunday 19 December - Sunday 9 January

L_W_P · Nov 10, 2021

Mowman said:
We had a bad Pre season with injuries and bad coaching, you can’t make finals when for the 1st half of the year most your side don’t know what their role is. That’s on Ratts and the coaches not the draw

I think this is an under-rated issue that we faced in the first half of the year.

Our back 6 in particular, seemed to be chopping and changing all the time. Neither Sinc or Webster were in that group last year. Carlisle and Geary out meant a lack of leadership/on field coaching.

George · Nov 10, 2021

phantom13 said:
At times early on (or probably more early mid) Max looked utterly disinterested.

As you say credit to him for turning it around and lets bear in mind hes recently 21 but i honestly thought he needed a rest and reset at about the mid way point of the year.

So did I. Thought he needed to get some confidence back so suggested they stick him in the VFL where there's less pressure on him to perform and in his case kick goals. I was howled down and probably rightly so because he stayed in the team and did turn his form around but I was never giving up on him by suggesting that, just simply wondering if he needed more time and if the club had managed his development properly.

Ephemeral Hope · Nov 10, 2021

George said:
So did I. Thought he needed to get some confidence back so suggested they stick him in the VFL where there's less pressure on him to perform and in his case kick goals. I was howled down and probably rightly so because he stayed in the team and did turn his form around but I was never giving up on him by suggesting that, just simply wondering if he needed more time and if the club had managed his development properly.

There was no one to take the number 1 spot if we rested Max. Sharman did well in the last match of the year but early on he wasn’t even on our list yet.

SaintsSeptember · Nov 10, 2021

George said:
So did I. Thought he needed to get some confidence back so suggested they stick him in the VFL where there's less pressure on him to perform and in his case kick goals. I was howled down and probably rightly so because he stayed in the team and did turn his form around but I was never giving up on him by suggesting that, just simply wondering if he needed more time and if the club had managed his development properly.

Dropping to the VFL is always viewed as punishment, especially on BF, but it can be a legitimate development tool.
A good player can get his hands on it more in VFL, so can practice disposing at a higher frequency, get more shots at goal etc.

And as you say, that helps with confidence.

Ephemeral Hope · Nov 10, 2021

SaintsSeptember said:
Dropping to the VFL is always viewed as punishment, especially on BF, but it can be a legitimate development tool.
A good player can get his hands on it more in VFL, so can practice disposing at a higher frequency, get more shots at goal etc.

And as you say, that helps with confidence.

It’s all messaging. If you tell the player they’re dropped and thats it they’ll think they’re being punished. If they’re told specifically what parts of their game they want to work on and that they’ll be given that role in the VFL specifically it can work.

SaintsSeptember · Nov 10, 2021

Ephemeral Hope said:
It’s all messaging. If you tell the player they’re dropped and thats it they’ll think they’re being punished. If they’re told specifically what parts of their game they want to work on and that they’ll be given that role in the VFL specifically it can work.

Obviously didn't work with Dunstan.

jwikked · Nov 10, 2021

George said:
So did I. Thought he needed to get some confidence back so suggested they stick him in the VFL where there's less pressure on him to perform and in his case kick goals. I was howled down and probably rightly so because he stayed in the team and did turn his form around but I was never giving up on him by suggesting that, just simply wondering if he needed more time and if the club had managed his development properly.

Yes I said the same. I was afraid the pressure would get to him and he'd end up with the yips long term. A circuit breaker was needed, well in the end I guess it wasn't, but when the pressure on him and the way he was reacting to missing goals it looked to me like finding some confidence in the VFL would have been a good idea.
The last thing we need to do is turn him into Jack Watts 2.0

ScrappyDo · Nov 10, 2021

CaptainRisky said:
We need to be good enough to make top 4 without everything going our way or all you going to do is keep giving the club an out because we had an injury or two, Do you think the Hawks or the Tigers never had injuries or things go wrong while they were winning flags

There's a fair difference between triple premiership teams in their prime and our lot. So much so as to make your point moot.
We're not a top team until we are a top team and we won't be that for a couple of years, but that doesn't mean we can't finish top or snatch a cheeky win.
I'm not giving them an out for anything either. There are reasons for winning and reasons for losing and none of it has anything to do with me or us.

pebblesofsand · Nov 10, 2021

Its clear what the AFL needs - more pretend draft and trade periods.

They are so absolutely f***ing rivetting so clearly we need more!!!

Perhaps they should split the DFA draft into four seperate drafts -

delisted duds who'll never make it,

state leagues superstars who turn out to be crap in the AFL

country stars who prefer beers and pies to actually training and

a completely seperate draft for players who have never played the game but jeez they're great "athletes".

Ailurus · Nov 10, 2021

Hugh Greenwood delisted, though will be re-rookied. I'd be very happy for us to grab him with a late pick, one of the better pure contested players in the league, we could probably do with at least one more like him even if it just lets Jones play more outside

Edit: Also Rory Thompson who is good and 200cm but has a few injury problems

Chef Ratts · Nov 10, 2021

Ailurus said:
Hugh Greenwood delisted, though will be re-rookied. I'd be very happy for us to grab him with a late pick, one of the better pure contested players in the league, we could probably do with at least one more like him even if it just lets Jones play more outside

Edit: Also Rory Thompson who is good and 200cm but has a few injury problems

How does that work exactly? Saw an article that they'll pick Greenwood up again with pick 115!

pebblesofsand · Nov 10, 2021

Ailurus said:
Hugh Greenwood delisted, though will be re-rookied. I'd be very happy for us to grab him with a late pick, one of the better pure contested players in the league, we could probably do with at least one more like him even if it just lets Jones play more outside

Edit: Also Rory Thompson who is good and 200cm but has a few injury problems

They have committed to picking them both up as rookies.

All they are doing is getting players off their main list so they have enough free spots to meet the AFL requirement of picking at least 3 players in the actual actual real draft.

Ailurus · Nov 10, 2021

pebblesofsand said:
They have committed to picking them both up as rookies.

All they are doing is getting players off their main list so they have enough free spots to meet the AFL requirement of picking at least 3 players in the actual actual real draft.

They have committed to it, but my understanding is we are free to select them though. I could be wrong on that but I thought that since they were delisted they are in the open pool with GC saying they will take them if available at the end of the draft, which would suggest we could get in before them

pebblesofsand · Nov 10, 2021

Ailurus said:
They have committed to it, but my understanding is we are free to select them though. I could be wrong on that but I thought that since they were delisted they are in the open pool with GC saying they will take them if available at the end of the draft, which would suggest we could get in before them

Yeah theoretically we could pick them ..... but clubs usually don't pick players who don't want to leave their current club.

Ailurus · Nov 10, 2021

pebblesofsand said:
Yeah theoretically we could pick them ..... but clubs usually don't pick players who don't want to leave their current club.

Of course, don't grab them if they aren't interested, don't need a player who isn't invested but it's worth a phone call to them at least

Ephemeral Hope · Nov 10, 2021

SaintsSeptember said:
Obviously didn't work with Dunstan.

It did. He worked himself and improved on his deficiencies. Did we not see the best games of Luke Dunstan’s career right after his stint in the VFL where he learned to be a more impactful player

gringo2011 · Nov 10, 2021

phantom13 said:
Our best 22-26 is absolutely capable of winning enough games to finish top 4 (as has been said we need some injury luck and expected player development).

Unfortunately on paper counts for very little when the season starts, Carltons best 22 on paper should have finished top 4-6 for the last few years.

Our lack of proper stars hold us back from going that next step to a premiership. If we don't develop a few more, top 4 might be our ceiling. Steele is our only close to elite player and he's not a high impact player like Petracca, Bont, Dusty etc. Port are in a similar boat. Brisbane since Charlie Cameron dropped off.

phantom13 · Nov 10, 2021

gringo2011 said:
Our lack of proper stars hold us back from going that next step to a premiership. If we don't develop a few more, top 4 might be our ceiling. Steele is our only close to elite player and he's not a high impact player like Petracca, Bont, Dusty etc. Port are in a similar boat. Brisbane since Charlie Cameron dropped off.

I tend to agree but that wasn’t really my point.

Parkysp · Nov 10, 2021

George said:
I haven't bothered to re-read the thread, cannot be arsed going back over comments that honestly don't mean much anymore. If there's any over the top criticism/abuse of Max then that is uncalled for but a lot also just had genuine criticism about his performance and they were well within their right to do so.

I agree that the thread was unnecessary but I don't think the opinions were that ridiculous. People see the output of a player who has shown signs of dominating and wasn't putting it together so it's obvious to see why some would think that maybe he's not the player we had hoped. For how many contests Max was getting to he was dropping marks and his kicking was poor. It was unnecessary to create the thread at the time because like you said he kicked 3.2 in his last 2 games but look at what happened after that, people were justified in questioning his capability. Five against the Eagles was good, but then;

1.2 v Richmond
0.1 v Port Adelaide
2.4 v Hawthorn
1.2 v Gold Coast
1.5 v Geelong
0.1 v Western Bulldogs
0.2 v North Melbourne
1.1 v Sydney

Then credit to him for turning it around like the rest of the side did post Sydney. But lets not kid ourselves, he was under-performing. Every time he lined up for goal I had no belief he'd kick it and more often than not that was the case.

He's a completely different player now, so anyone that thinks the same way about him now as they did 6 months ago is a fool. The others who changed opinion are more than entitled to, Max's form turned around and he realised some of his potential. I don't get the point of going back over comments made over half a year ago and hanging sh*t on what people thought back then because they were justified in doing so. It'd be similar to digging up threads made 8 years ago about people saying how bad we are the year we win the flag or something. It doesn't make sense to me.

The criticism for a young key forward learning his craft back then was so far over the top it's not funny. Wasn't even close to being justified. Glad they've come around 6 months later though

Premium · Nov 10, 2021

gringo2011 said:
Our lack of proper stars hold us back from going that next step to a premiership. If we don't develop a few more, top 4 might be our ceiling. Steele is our only close to elite player and he's not a high impact player like Petracca, Bont, Dusty etc. Port are in a similar boat. Brisbane since Charlie Cameron dropped off.

Gringo , Pettracca has only come good the last 2 years , Dustin Martin also took time to become the star he is to day - no one can predict the future and with our young squad who knows we might have a couple gems - time will tell but you have to have faith in the players we have.
The development under Ratten has been better than past years just looking at the kids we have playing.
Max King looks to be a once in a lifetime player and at only 21 and players like Clark , Coffield , Higgins , Sharman , Highmore , Connolly , Byrne , Bytel any of them could be standouts in the future.
You only have to see the improvement of Sinclair , McKenzie and even Dunstan to see we are now getting the most out of some of the players.
We always seem to find excuses but we did have some , Marshall to me is one of our best players and having him only playing half a season and really effected our team , Clark was in the same boat with Jones , Gresham , Paton.

Our team is laced with highly talented players and our forward line to me would have to have the potential to be the best in the league.

Having class small forwards in Butler , Higgins , Billings , Gresham and marking players in King , Membery and now Sharman just shows how strong we are.
Our midfield let us down last year having to rely on Steele and Crouch to do just about all the work and hopefully with a fit Marshall , Jones , Clark and Gresham it should fix the problem.

We all know we had a shocking year with many of our players well off there best like Billings ,Hill , Membery , Butler and with the injuries of Marshall and co , we never hit the heights we expected - but you can count this will not happen next year - we missed finals by one game after having a truly bad year with only a couple players performing.

We still have a long way to go to prove we can win a flag but if we can get it together with this squad and a few added young players this draft period we could be in for a great few years.

ScrappyDo · Nov 11, 2021

Premium said:
Gringo , Pettracca has only come good the last 2 years , Dustin Martin also took time to become the star he is to day - no one can predict the future and with our young squad who knows we might have a couple gems - time will tell but you have to have faith in the players we have.
The development under Ratten has been better than past years just looking at the kids we have playing.
Max King looks to be a once in a lifetime player and at only 21 and players like Clark , Coffield , Higgins , Sharman , Highmore , Connolly , Byrne , Bytel any of them could be standouts in the future.
You only have to see the improvement of Sinclair , McKenzie and even Dunstan to see we are now getting the most out of some of the players.
We always seem to find excuses but we did have some , Marshall to me is one of our best players and having him only playing half a season and really effected our team , Clark was in the same boat with Jones , Gresham , Paton.

Our team is laced with highly talented players and our forward line to me would have to have the potential to be the best in the league.

Having class small forwards in Butler , Higgins , Billings , Gresham and marking players in King , Membery and now Sharman just shows how strong we are.
Our midfield let us down last year having to rely on Steele and Crouch to do just about all the work and hopefully with a fit Marshall , Jones , Clark and Gresham it should fix the problem.

We all know we had a shocking year with many of our players well off there best like Billings ,Hill , Membery , Butler and with the injuries of Marshall and co , we never hit the heights we expected - but you can count this will not happen next year - we missed finals by one game after having a truly bad year with only a couple players performing.

We still have a long way to go to prove we can win a flag but if we can get it together with this squad and a few added young players this draft period we could be in for a great few years.

We have so many guys in the 50-60 games group that some of them just have to break out this year.
When you look at our under 20 games group of Highmore, B1, B2 and Connolly there's also huge room for growth.

Like you l think we're in a reasonably good position. I don't think there'll be much to criticize about our list after this draft.
Of course we lack stars ATM but 1 final in 10 years means that's not at all surprising.

moirae42 · Nov 11, 2021

Almost every player in our best 22 are nowhere near their ceiling. Even Steele.

mad-saint-guy · Nov 11, 2021

Rather than doing my job, I feel like procrastinating so here's my take on the state of the list pre-draft

Best 22

B: Paton, Howard, Wilkie
HB: Coffield, Battle, Sinclair
C: Hill, Steele, Billings
HF: Gresham, Marshall, Higgins
F: Butler, King, Membrey

Foll: Ryder, Crouch, Jones
Int: Clark, Ross, Sharman, Webster

Reserves

B: Geary, Joyce, ***
HB: Connolly, Highmore, Long
C: McKenzie, Hannebery, ***
HF: Kent, Wood, ***
F: Heath, Allison, ***

Foll: Campbell, Byrnes, Bytel

This says to me that our best 22 is in pretty good shape although we may need to find a better CHB option depending on how Battle goes in that role. I imagine we'll be looking for some skillful outside mids/small forwards in the draft and we could definitely use another genuine gun midfielder. It wouldn't surprise me if we grabbed another ruck/forward as well. With a good pre season, soft fixture and a decent run with injuries we should be pushing the top 6 and could even give the top 4 a shake if some guys like Clark and Coffield come into their own. If we have injuries to key players like Ryder/Howard/Marshall/Steele and stuff up another pre season then we could absolutely end up bottom 4.

George · Nov 11, 2021

Parkysp said:
The criticism for a young key forward learning his craft back then was so far over the top it's not funny. Wasn't even close to being justified. Glad they've come around 6 months later though

Agree to disagree. Some criticism was justified given he was getting shots at goal and missing. That's got little to do with AFL experience. That's just kicking for goal.

gringo2011 · Nov 11, 2021

Parkysp said:
The criticism for a young key forward learning his craft back then was so far over the top it's not funny. Wasn't even close to being justified. Glad they've come around 6 months later though

Very rarely does fair come into it. Seb Ross has been a loyal servant for as long as anyone at the club and taken home awards and you never see anyone say anything remotely respectful about him. You'd think he was Jordan DeGoey without the talent the way he's talked about. People are campaigners.

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