List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part III

George · Aug 24, 2021

Delisted;
Oscar Clavarino
Sam Alabakis
Jack Lonie
Paul Hunter

Traded;
Luke Dunstan

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Dylan Roberton
Shaun McKernan
James Frawley

To see the full playing list list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...

www.bigfooty.com

Restricted and Unrestricted Free Agency Window
Friday October 1 – Friday October 8

Trade Period
Players: Monday October 4 – Wednesday October 13
Picks: Monday October 4 – Monday November 15

List Lodgement 1
Friday October 29

Delisted Free Agency Window 1
Wednesday November 3 - Tuesday November 9

List Lodgement 2 (Final date for primary list delistings)
Wednesday November 10

Delisted Free Agency Window 2
Thursday November 11 - Monday November 15

AFL Pre-Season Commences (First to fourth year players)
Monday November 22

National Draft
Round 1: Wednesday November 24 (7pm)
Round 2 – completion: Thursday November 25 (7pm - late)

Preseason and Rookie Drafts
Friday November 26 (3.20pm)

Final List Lodgement
Monday November 29

Pre-Season Commences (All other players)
Monday 6 December

Pre-Season Supplemental Selection Period (SSP)
December - March (tbc)

Pre-Season Christmas Break
Sunday 19 December - Sunday 9 January

BrutThough · Nov 9, 2021

George said:
Yes, they did.

He was kicking poorly, he was woeful in front of goal and shirked contests. That all changed as the season progressed, and so did opinions of him. Mine too. It's obvious he wasn't playing to the standard required and then turned it around.

That thread was cerated after the Essendon game, which was his 2nd game for the season and he had kicked 2.0 and 1.2 in his two games. And against Essendon, the ball barely went forward due to the pathetic effort from the midfield.

Any thread created to specifically abuse Max after that game was ridiculous.

Ephemeral Hope · Nov 9, 2021

BrutThough said:
That thread was cerated after the Essendon game, which was his 2nd game for the season and he had kicked 2.0 and 1.2 in his two games. And against Essendon, the ball barely went forward due to the pathetic effort from the midfield.

Any thread created to specifically abuse Max after that game was ridiculous.

A lot of anger from supporters who expected to be a top 4 side this year. Expecting us to cruise through pathetic sides like essendon. It got better for us after a few more weeks coming to acceptance of the status quo that we weren’t that good this season

George · Nov 10, 2021

Winmar2Lockett said:
Read that thread of hysterical over reactions & borderline abuse of the kid. Idiotic regardless of whether they retracted it later.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I haven't bothered to re-read the thread, cannot be arsed going back over comments that honestly don't mean much anymore. If there's any over the top criticism/abuse of Max then that is uncalled for but a lot also just had genuine criticism about his performance and they were well within their right to do so.

BrutThough said:
That thread was cerated after the Essendon game, which was his 2nd game for the season and he had kicked 2.0 and 1.2 in his two games. And against Essendon, the ball barely went forward due to the pathetic effort from the midfield.

Any thread created to specifically abuse Max after that game was ridiculous.

I agree that the thread was unnecessary but I don't think the opinions were that ridiculous. People see the output of a player who has shown signs of dominating and wasn't putting it together so it's obvious to see why some would think that maybe he's not the player we had hoped. For how many contests Max was getting to he was dropping marks and his kicking was poor. It was unnecessary to create the thread at the time because like you said he kicked 3.2 in his last 2 games but look at what happened after that, people were justified in questioning his capability. Five against the Eagles was good, but then;

1.2 v Richmond
0.1 v Port Adelaide
2.4 v Hawthorn
1.2 v Gold Coast
1.5 v Geelong
0.1 v Western Bulldogs
0.2 v North Melbourne
1.1 v Sydney

Then credit to him for turning it around like the rest of the side did post Sydney. But lets not kid ourselves, he was under-performing. Every time he lined up for goal I had no belief he'd kick it and more often than not that was the case.

He's a completely different player now, so anyone that thinks the same way about him now as they did 6 months ago is a fool. The others who changed opinion are more than entitled to, Max's form turned around and he realised some of his potential. I don't get the point of going back over comments made over half a year ago and hanging shit on what people thought back then because they were justified in doing so. It'd be similar to digging up threads made 8 years ago about people saying how bad we are the year we win the flag or something. It doesn't make sense to me.

CaptainRisky · Nov 10, 2021

Chef Ratts said:
Not done yet: Luckless former No.1 pick Paddy McCartin ‘poised’ to receive AFL lifeline

Not done yet: Luckless former No.1 pick ‘poised’ to receive AFL lifeline

www.foxsports.com.au

Ticking time bomb

CaptainRisky · Nov 10, 2021

Ephemeral Hope said:
A lot of anger from supporters who expected to be a top 4 side this year. Expecting us to cruise through pathetic sides like essendon. It got better for us after a few more weeks coming to acceptance of the status quo that we weren’t that good this season

We were never going to be top 4 this year , anyone that thought we were needs to take their rose coloured glasses off , and for that we wont be top 4 next year either IMO

pebblesofsand · Nov 10, 2021

CaptainRisky said:
We were never going to be top 4 this year , anyone that thought we were needs to take their rose coloured glasses off , and for that we wont be top 4 next year either IMO

Don't agree. A good run with injury, a bit of confidence in the game plan and pretty much every team is capable of top 4.

Crystal Ball: Our predictions for the 2021 AFL season are in

Premiership, Brownlow, recruit of the year. We make the call

www.afl.com.au

Saintbloke · Nov 10, 2021

CaptainRisky said:
We were never going to be top 4 this year , anyone that thought we were needs to take their rose coloured glasses off , and for that we wont be top 4 next year either IMO

We are not going top 4 unless we get more midfield class- end of story.

CaptainRisky · Nov 10, 2021

pebblesofsand said:
Don't agree. A good run with injury, a bit of confidence in the game plan and pretty much every team is capable of top 4.

Crystal Ball: Our predictions for the 2021 AFL season are in

Premiership, Brownlow, recruit of the year. We make the call

www.afl.com.au

Not sure what the article proves , they are just jurno's and are no more experts in football than you or me , they got sucked in like a lot of people going off the mickey mouse season of 2020
This year showed us how easily we can drop away if we loose a bloke like Ryder or Marshall and our mids are no where near good enough yet to take us to the promised land .
As i have said many times 2023 is where our window will start to open up IMO

pebblesofsand · Nov 10, 2021

CaptainRisky said:
Not sure what the article proves , they are just jurno's and are no more experts in football than you or me , they got sucked in like a lot of people going off the mickey mouse season of 2020
This year showed us how easily we can drop away if we loose a bloke like Ryder or Marshall and our mids are no where near good enough yet to take us to the promised land .
As i have said many times 2023 is where our window will start to open up IMO

I thought it proved that witha good run with injuries and the confidence that comes with wins means pretty much every team is capable of ending up as Top 4.

The fact that the experts (and us) get it wrong so frequently shows that its the intangibles not a specific "player" formula that are the most important factors in determining success in an elite team environment.

Reinforces my belief that our list is capable of finishing Top 4 in 2022.

CaptainRisky · Nov 10, 2021

pebblesofsand said:
I thought it proved that witha good run with injuries and the confidence that comes with wins means pretty much every team is capable of ending up as Top 4.

The fact that the experts (and us) get it wrong so frequently shows that its the intangibles not a specific "player" formula that are the most important factors in determining success in an elite team environment.

Reinforces my belief that our list is capable of finishing Top 4 in 2022.

Of course just about most sides could with a massive amount of luck make top 4 but , will we next year , i very much doubt it .
Its very easy to say if we had of kicked straight , if we had less injuries , if we had a better draw but other teams had hardship as well , we were not the only team that had some bad luck and some will say our kids will improve next year which they will , so will all the other teams kids , so its not as easy as you think to jump from where we ended up this year to finish top 4 next year .
Some have mentioned how Melbourne came from the clouds , they didn't really if you look at their list compared to ours and over the draft period they only made their team better with Kosi , Brown and a gun first year ruckman .

The Punter · Nov 10, 2021

Just for the record on 2021 "excuses":

- The draw did hurt us (we had the toughest draw on the most basic metric, would have played finals based on this if the draw had been "even")
- We won two games through accurate kicking (GWS & Coll) and lost one game (Geel) through inaccurate kicking, so poor kicking for goal didn't cost us (again, based on the most basic metric)

phantom13 · Nov 10, 2021

George said:
I haven't bothered to re-read the thread, cannot be arsed going back over comments that honestly don't mean much anymore. If there's any over the top criticism/abuse of Max then that is uncalled for but a lot also just had genuine criticism about his performance and they were well within their right to do so.

I agree that the thread was unnecessary but I don't think the opinions were that ridiculous. People see the output of a player who has shown signs of dominating and wasn't putting it together so it's obvious to see why some would think that maybe he's not the player we had hoped. For how many contests Max was getting to he was dropping marks and his kicking was poor. It was unnecessary to create the thread at the time because like you said he kicked 3.2 in his last 2 games but look at what happened after that, people were justified in questioning his capability. Five against the Eagles was good, but then;

1.2 v Richmond
0.1 v Port Adelaide
2.4 v Hawthorn
1.2 v Gold Coast
1.5 v Geelong
0.1 v Western Bulldogs
0.2 v North Melbourne
1.1 v Sydney

Then credit to him for turning it around like the rest of the side did post Sydney. But lets not kid ourselves, he was under-performing. Every time he lined up for goal I had no belief he'd kick it and more often than not that was the case.

He's a completely different player now, so anyone that thinks the same way about him now as they did 6 months ago is a fool. The others who changed opinion are more than entitled to, Max's form turned around and he realised some of his potential. I don't get the point of going back over comments made over half a year ago and hanging sh*t on what people thought back then because they were justified in doing so. It'd be similar to digging up threads made 8 years ago about people saying how bad we are the year we win the flag or something. It doesn't make sense to me.

At times early on (or probably more early mid) Max looked utterly disinterested.

As you say credit to him for turning it around and lets bear in mind hes recently 21 but i honestly thought he needed a rest and reset at about the mid way point of the year.

joop · Nov 10, 2021

The Punter said:
Just for the record on 2021 "excuses":

- The draw did hurt us (we had the toughest draw on the most basic metric, would have played finals based on this if the draw had been "even")
- We won two games through accurate kicking (GWS & Coll) and lost one game (Geel) through inaccurate kicking, so poor kicking for goal didn't cost us (again, based on the most basic metric)

Also poor kicking against the Swans in the last quarter when we were all over them.

Ephemeral Hope · Nov 10, 2021

CaptainRisky said:
We were never going to be top 4 this year , anyone that thought we were needs to take their rose coloured glasses off , and for that we wont be top 4 next year either IMO

I know that but a lot did believe it. “We came 6th or 5th and therefore can only go up”

pretty sure the players thought so too based on their output early

ScrappyDo · Nov 10, 2021

CaptainRisky said:
Of course just about most sides could with a massive amount of luck make top 4 but , will we next year , i very much doubt it .
Its very easy to say if we had of kicked straight , if we had less injuries , if we had a better draw but other teams had hardship as well , we were not the only team that had some bad luck and some will say our kids will improve next year which they will , so will all the other teams kids , so its not as easy as you think to jump from where we ended up this year to finish top 4 next year .
Some have mentioned how Melbourne came from the clouds , they didn't really if you look at their list compared to ours and over the draft period they only made their team better with Kosi , Brown and a gun first year ruckman .

It's a question of "making" the top 4, or "being" in the top 4.
Melbourne for example had a golden run with injuries and an easier fixture. Had we had that same "luck" we'd have made finals and the discussion over our top 4 credentials would be rather different.
Over all, for various reasons we under performed in 2021.
Next year if everything goes well, we should be in contention for a top 4 place. If it goes poorly again we'll be 8th to 10th.

phantom13 · Nov 10, 2021

Our best 22-26 is absolutely capable of winning enough games to finish top 4 (as has been said we need some injury luck and expected player development).

Unfortunately on paper counts for very little when the season starts, Carltons best 22 on paper should have finished top 4-6 for the last few years.

CaptainRisky · Nov 10, 2021

ScrappyDo said:
It's a question of "making" the top 4, or "being" in the top 4.
Melbourne for example had a golden run with injuries and an easier fixture. Had we had that same "luck" we'd have made finals and the discussion over our top 4 credentials would be rather different.
Over all, for various reasons we under performed in 2021.
Next year if everything goes well, we should be in contention for a top 4 place. If it goes poorly again we'll be 8th to 10th.

We need to be good enough to make top 4 without everything going our way or all you going to do is keep giving the club an out because we had an injury or two, Do you think the Hawks or the Tigers never had injuries or things go wrong while they were winning flags

phantom13 · Nov 10, 2021

CaptainRisky said:
We need to be good enough to make top 4 without everything going our way or all you going to do is keep giving the club an out because we had an injury or two, Do you think the Hawks or the Tigers never had injuries or things go wrong while they were winning flags

Both those teams had pretty charmed runs with injuries, not that they had none but they certainly managed to have good runs with players fit at the pointy end of the season.

Last year if wed snuck into the 8 we would have been a real shake to pull a 16 dogs run with the way we got everyone back.

Teams need to be good enough to put themselves in the hunt but youre joking if you think a bit of luck hasnt played into just about every flag ever won, hell the two weve lost in the last decade and a bit were themselves lost on a couple of the most unlucky outcomes ever seen.

CaptainRisky · Nov 10, 2021

phantom13 said:
Both those teams had pretty charmed runs with injuries, not that they had none but they certainly managed to have good runs with players fit at the pointy end of the season.

Last year if wed snuck into the 8 we would have been a real shake to pull a 16 dogs run with the way we got everyone back.

Teams need to be good enough to put themselves in the hunt but youre joking if you think a bit of luck hasnt played into just about every flag ever won, hell the two weve lost in the last decade and a bit were themselves lost on a couple of the most unlucky outcomes ever seen.

And there is a big difference between a bit of luck and needing everything to go our way ,

CaptainRisky · Nov 10, 2021

phantom13 said:
Both those teams had pretty charmed runs with injuries, not that they had none but they certainly managed to have good runs with players fit at the pointy end of the season.

Last year if wed snuck into the 8 we would have been a real shake to pull a 16 dogs run with the way we got everyone back.

Teams need to be good enough to put themselves in the hunt but youre joking if you think a bit of luck hasnt played into just about every flag ever won, hell the two weve lost in the last decade and a bit were themselves lost on a couple of the most unlucky outcomes ever seen.

How did we go in round 20 against the Blues , hardly form that's taking you into finals

phantom13 · Nov 10, 2021

CaptainRisky said:
And there is a big difference between a bit of luck and needing everything to go our way ,

Personally, i think we need a bit of luck after a year of having next to no luck to be challenging for a top 4 spot.

You get that and anything is possible.

phantom13 · Nov 10, 2021

CaptainRisky said:
How did we go in round 20 against the Blues , hardly form that's taking you into finals

How did the dogs go in round 23 of 2016?

How did the dogs go in round 22 of this season before making a grand final.

One game doesnt make form, we were better in the second half of the year and had players returning to fitness. If wed snuck into the 8 i dont think many teams would have wanted to play us (much like they probably didnt want to play the dogs).

Ephemeral Hope · Nov 10, 2021

phantom13 said:
How did the dogs go in round 23 of 2016?

How did the dogs go in round 22 of this season before making a grand final.

One game doesnt make form, we were better in the second half of the year and had players returning to fitness. If wed snuck into the 8 i dont think many teams would have wanted to play us (much like they probably didnt want to play the dogs).

Dogs were pathetic heading into finals. They choked themselves out of a top 4 spot when they’d been firmly entrenched in the top 2 the whole year

phantom13 · Nov 10, 2021

Ephemeral Hope said:
Dogs were pathetic heading into finals. They choked themselves out of a top 4 spot when they’d been firmly entrenched in the top 2 the whole year

And yet they still made a grand final and led said grand final at half time

Mowman · Nov 10, 2021

The Punter said:
Just for the record on 2021 "excuses":

- The draw did hurt us (we had the toughest draw on the most basic metric, would have played finals based on this if the draw had been "even")
- We won two games through accurate kicking (GWS & Coll) and lost one game (Geel) through inaccurate kicking, so poor kicking for goal didn't cost us (again, based on the most basic metric)

We had a bad Pre season with injuries and bad coaching, you can’t make finals when for the 1st half of the year most of your side don’t know what their role is. That’s on Ratts and the coaches not the draw

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