List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.3

[SteeleSaints]

Theoretically could we walk a state league Ruckman to the Pre-Season Draft?

Liam Jarrah was the last non-AFL player to be drafted in the pre-season draft.

They still have to nominate for the draft - so would have to be passed by everyone twice.

 

[Mr Platinum]

Considering Benier a) Is nowhere near the level and B) doesn’t play at Parkdale, both are very unlikely

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

I wonder if he is projected for the top 50? Geelong have pick 45, Saints pick 47. Both need more ruck support. The ball’s in Geelong’s court.

Would be ironic if they took him with 45 (we gave it to the dogs for maclobster which became part of the smith trade k I think).

 

[TheJackal]

This current offering is the right balance.

Being an afl listed player is more than being a stud full forward or on baller.

Attitude. Application to the task. Mentality etc

Are all just as important - hence why the Sandy coach is a stkilda employee.

You bring these guys in and they need to work around what we are developing. It wouldn’t be any different if posters believe they played at Moorabbin under the saints name and colours.

Box hill is successful because the hawks have shown a pathway for that external talent.

Your last comment is interesting. Hawks don't have a guarantee of a list spot, don't think any other club does or ever will. Yet they are successfully attracting talent.

Excellent post, Hawthorn mined Box Hill and the Jai Newcombe types decided to come, the rest is history. We should absolutely be drafting a Sandy player every year, until we catch a beauty.

Hawthorn and Newcombe used very questionable tactics to get what they wanted. Didn't the AFL change the rules after they exploited it?

I don't agree that Hawthorn have mined Box Hill. In fact, this year we picked up the best Box Hill player before them. A look at their history shows they've had a few hits, Mitchell & Newcombe the obvious ones. But there were plenty more who have played at Box Hill and been drafted to other clubs.
........


Anyway, I expect to be joked about or mocked now that I've questioned this. But I think it's irresponsible of the club to give up a spot.

If I was the club and had the idea, I would've asked the AFL for an opportunity to grow the VFL and Sandy by offering a Cat B rookie spot...

I don't like it, I understand the theory as has been explained plenty. Some will understand the long game, others will find it irresponsible. It's one of those decisions where it will only be agreed upon in 10 years time, just like our move to Seaford.

 

[Coconut_twirl]

I think it will be one of the NGA boys who have -played at Sandy during the year.
A technicality,yes I know ,but the existing talent is just not worthy.
But then again we are Stkilda and anything could happen

I hope we use that technicality. Might use it on Elwood. If we must use it on one of the regular Sandy players, I would go Hipwell.

 

[Premium]

For the 100th time, we cant expect their recruiting to immediately turn around in one off season. It will take time and actual proof from us that we will uphold our end of the bargain.

I'm interested where all the delisted players will go - guys like Schache , Wiederman - will they go to VFL clubs or other state's.
Even if they are not AFL grade players they will at least lift the standard at Sandringham , well hopefully.
Will will be able to judge after a couple years - but at least they are attempting something , all the people knocking it , I would like to know there solution to fix Sandringham.

 

[SG34]

Bottom line still remains from a st Kilda perspective what are Sandy there to do, what are we looking for in this partnership. Number 1 is the development of our players and systems, where do you think sandy winning flags rates ?. Imo sandy would have played finals this year if we’d had a decent run with injuries so it really wasn’t a bad year.

We have noted that Sandy were a powerhouse and haven't done really well with tie-up with St Kilda, and made various comments for and against the alignment.

I think we should note that Sandy and Melbourne had an excellent alignment before us. In those ten years up to the end of '08, Sandy won four flags and Melbourne made the final 8 six times out of ten, including a couple of top 4 finishes. Something worked. What is is I have no idea.

 

[stavro#4]

Benier was on full display for old Brighton in the televised vafa grand final where he wasn’t in the best players. I’m not sure how you think he was buried but he wasn’t and isn’t up to to much imo.

The sandy rookie is a bad joke imo and brings us and sandy no benefit at all. The president identified our need to draft more locals, couldn’t agree more when it’s all things being equal draft local, but he was talking about the dragons.

To say the zebras rookie is drawing a long bow with little to no benefit to either club is stating the bleeding obvious. It should be knocked on the head right now, amateur hour when we keep a list spot open and fill it not with the best player but with a sandy listed player.

So what you are suggesting is Benier will be our pick. He would want to have shown a whole lot more at Old Brighton than he did in his couple of games with Sandringham. Plus why on earth would we be looking to draft another back flanker - has the world gone mad? Plus if he is a worthy pick it has actually announced to the comp that we are interested and possibly worked against us having him play for Sandringham.

I understand your source might be apart of the decision making for the agreement Stav, but they have made a very poor decision entering into it in my view. Unless the AFL give a special dispensation for a rookie position it needs to be scrapped.

Fox Sports mid season draft article -

Available list spots prior to Round 11: 1
Key defender James Van Es’ long-term ankle ailment means the Saints have the potential to make a selection at this year’s mid-year intake.
And multiple rival clubs believe Max Benier is a good chance to end up at Moorabbin next week.

Benier, an ex-basketballer, is due to play his third game for the Sandringham Zebras — St Kilda’s VFL affiliate — this weekend after being jettisoned into the team from VAFA side Old Brighton earlier this month. He’s an athletic 190cm third tall defender that has not only received interest from the Saints, but also Essendon and Port Adelaide. Benier impressed on-lookers against Richmond’s VFL side on the weekend, finishing with 13 disposals and three marks.

Adding to the intrigue is that St Kilda is committed to drafting a player from the Zebras each year.

The other obvious point is how does grabbing a player like this help Sandringham and our alliance? Benier played 3 games and looked ordinary, how will the rest of their list feel seeing him getting picked over themselves?

The one possible out that I just considered, that given Benier's background perhaps he qualifies for a Cat B Rookie position, given clubs are allowed to have three now.

Your last comment is interesting. Hawks don't have a guarantee of a list spot, don't think any other club does or ever will. Yet they are successfully attracting talent.



Hawthorn and Newcombe used very questionable tactics to get what they wanted. Didn't the AFL change the rules after they exploited it?

I don't agree that Hawthorn have mined Box Hill. In fact, this year we picked up the best Box Hill player before them. A look at their history shows they've had a few hits, Mitchell & Newcombe the obvious ones. But there were plenty more who have played at Box Hill and been drafted to other clubs.
........


Anyway, I expect to be joked about or mocked now that I've questioned this. But I think it's irresponsible of the club to give up a spot.

If I was the club and had the idea, I would've asked the AFL for an opportunity to grow the VFL and Sandy by offering a Cat B rookie spot...

I don't like it, I understand the theory as has been explained plenty. Some will understand the long game, others will find it irresponsible. It's one of those decisions where it will only be agreed upon in 10 years time, just like our move to Seaford.

I’m not saying Benier is the pick. I’m not saying I even know.

I’m saying it’s possible to show and then stash a talent using this alignment.

The hawks are over a decade ahead with a proven pathway. The guarantee is a way to bridge the time it’s taken to develop that relationship with the wider football public.

There may not be an immediate win. Doesn’t mean it won’t be successful

 

[Sarcoidevo]

We showed this year that when we had a relatively healthy list that Sandy were very strong .... I would even say Top 4 competitive .... when injuries & suspensions hit so did the Zebra's fortunes

 

[Mindtraveller]

I’m not saying Benier is the pick. I’m not saying I even know.

I’m saying it’s possible to show and then stash a talent using this alignment.

The hawks are over a decade ahead with a proven pathway. The guarantee is a way to bridge the time it’s taken to develop that relationship with the wider football public.

There may not be an immediate win. Doesn’t mean it won’t be successful

Perhaps part of the problem is push back or reluctance from the VAFA players and teams when called up.

 

[Pou Steele]

Does anyone ever JOG someone through to the Draft..or do they only ever walk?

I believe the correct pronunciation is “yog” - it’s a soft “j”.

 

[Michael Goodinski]

Everything on field is already run by us. The same players running around in a saints jumper instead of a zebra jumper would make zero difference to their development.

And anyway, the players were developing fine at Sandy this year. Almost everyone who went back there returned to the senior side a better player. Isn't that what we want?

The only time the zebs looked any good was when the team had the most number of St.Kilda players on the field. I watched them play a number of times live this year and a couple of times on tv, so I have a reasonable sample size to draw on.

If they're doing so well, as you claim, ask yourself when was the last time they made finals? There is not a single player on our list drafted from the zebs.

We don't draw players from there and player improvement and development happens because all listed players train full time at Moorabbin, separate from Sandringham.

The players also have to play in that windswept, postage stamp sized, poorly surfaced shithole, TTBBO. Who'd want to play there?

What do I want to see? How about we take a leaf out of Hawthorn/Box Hills book? Premierships, competitiveness and senior listed players from Box Hill hawks becoming regular senior players.

We've even pinched one from Box Hill and put him on our list in Max Hall. Who was the last Zebras' player who was drafted to another club, let alone ours? Just the guy we delisted, break glass in case of emergency Campbell.

The alignment may save us money, but from a playing perspective it's been an abject failure.

Let's see a proper second's set up, where we play in the saints' jumper, at our true home on a pristine surface that is of the same dimensions as Marvel.

Ditch them. Let them fight for their own identity. The alignment has weakened the once mighty Zebras as well. It's been a lose/ lose situation. We can draw players from local leagues to make up the numbers if we have to.

We always did back in the day. That way we can pick and choose who we want to have a close look at. Who would you rather call you up for a game, RTB or someone from Sandy? They are a liability. Just do it, Saints. For everyone's benefit.

 

[Michael Goodinski]

Perhaps part of the problem is push back or reluctance from the VAFA players and teams when called up.

Spot on, Mindtraveller. My son plays in the ammos and two of his team mates knocked back offers to play at Sandy this year. Both ended up turning out for Box Hill.

The management had a significant say in where they went. Sandy is on the nose, even with local clubs.

 

[Michael Goodinski]

I get they haven’t shown anything yet but this is the first year it’s been tried so not sure you’d expect much. The best players from lower leagues arent just going to come running over the hill towards TBO in it’s inception. Firstly you have to resource it properly then you have to follow through with a level of commitment demonstrating you are serious about it and it’s not just a throw away idea. It will take time.

It would help attract some players if the were playing in St.Kilda colors at Moorabbin, in front of RTB, SOS and co. and occasionally training with the senior group.

My son plays in the ammos (see my previous post). The Zebs are not a desired location.

 

[austinnn]

Spot on, Mindtraveller. My son plays in the ammos and two of his team mates knocked back offers to play at Sandy this year. Both ended up turning out for Box Hill.

The management had a significant say in where they went. Sandy is on the nose, even with local clubs.

It will be pretty mean of St Kilda to destroy the Zebras by aligning with them, only to ditch them and help let them fight for themselves many years later: we know they couldn't survive on their own, so we would have effectively killed the club.

What could be better is to treat the alignment with the respect it deserves. This means properly investing in it by treating it as our development programme, as it should be in the first place. "Drop" players from St Kilda to develop, not punish. Fix the terrain. Have the club train at Moorabbin with the academy, under the noses of our coaches. Get guest coaching sessions from time to time with Lyon, Enright and co, meaningful ones not just generic ones where they dont know much about the players. Let them use our facilities. Have media content and Saints promos (photos, vids, interviews) that mixes Saints players with Sandy players and Saints AFLW players, like a team of teams. Put pressure on the AFL to schedule some games as curtain raisers at Marvel for games with low predicted turn out. Poach a top VFL recruiter to do a proper job instead of this inconvenient incentive from St Kilda. Get them in our colours, rename them Sandringham Saints, get rid of the worlds worst sporting club logo once and for all.

Stop thinking of Sandringham as a separate club, it is actually our academy.

Do it properly, that's all.

 

[HeavenlySources]

It would help attract some players if the were playing in St.Kilda colors at Moorabbin, in front of RTB, SOS and co. and occasionally training with the senior group.

My son plays in the ammos (see my previous post). The Zebs are not a desired location.

this, if we are serious about taking steps to attract talent then why stop at just a guaranteed sandy draftee. Only reason we wouldn't is due to politics.

 

[Yawkey way]

We have noted that Sandy were a powerhouse and haven't done really well with tie-up with St Kilda, and made various comments for and against the alignment.

I think we should note that Sandy and Melbourne had an excellent alignment before us. In those ten years up to the end of '08, Sandy won four flags and Melbourne made the final 8 six times out of ten, including a couple of top 4 finishes. Something worked. What is is I have no idea.

All afl affiliated vfl clubs are inextricably linked to the fortunes of the afl club. If you have plenty of mature depth and a good run with injuries then the vfl side is usually travelling well.

This year for example we have 2 academy and 1 father son coming in, list spots are tight and mature depth is leaving. In another year that might have meant we kept Ross, Membrey and Hayes. I don’t see any reason to panic about sandy I watch them to see our young guys developing not desperately looking for wins and finals.

I think if I was going to make one change with a view to benefiting both clubs it would be offering a mature quality servant of the club a playing and development role. A guy like Seb Ross imo would have made a good sandy captain with a development roll. St Kilda fund it and the guy gets two years to launch his coaching career and we benefit from having a two time B&F with something left in the tank running around with the young guys.

Imo something like that would be pretty popular with the fan base and actually benefit both clubs. I wouldn’t lock it in as something we’d always do, you obviously need the right player. Perhaps in a year where no one suitable was available we could commit an extra $50k to recruit a quality top up.

 

[Significant]

All afl affiliated vfl clubs are inextricably linked to the fortunes of the afl club. If you have plenty of mature depth and a good run with injuries then the vfl side is usually travelling well.

This year for example we have 2 academy and 1 father son coming in, list spots are tight and mature depth is leaving. In another year that might have meant we kept Ross, Membrey and Hayes. I don’t see any reason to panic about sandy I watch them to see our young guys developing not desperately looking for wins and finals.

I think if I was going to make one change with a view to benefiting both clubs it would be offering a mature quality servant of the club a playing and development role. A guy like Seb Ross imo would have made a good sandy captain with a development roll. St Kilda fund it and the guy gets two years to launch his coaching career and we benefit from having a two time B&F with something left in the tank running around with the young guys.

Imo something like that would be pretty popular with the fan base and actually benefit both clubs. I wouldn’t lock it in as something we’d always do, you obviously need the right player. Perhaps in a year where no one suitable was available we could commit an extra $50k to recruit a quality top up.

I like this innovative thinking.

 

[BrutThough]

The only time the zebs looked any good was when the team had the most number of St.Kilda players on the field. I watched them play a number of times live this year and a couple of times on tv, so I have a reasonable sample size to draw on.

If they're doing so well, as you claim, ask yourself when was the last time they made finals? There is not a single player on our list drafted from the zebs.

We don't draw players from there and player improvement and development happens because all listed players train full time at Moorabbin, separate from Sandringham.

The players also have to play in that windswept, postage stamp sized, poorly surfaced shithole, TTBBO. Who'd want to play there?

What do I want to see? How about we take a leaf out of Hawthorn/Box Hills book? Premierships, competitiveness and senior listed players from Box Hill hawks becoming regular senior players.

We've even pinched one from Box Hill and put him on our list in Max Hall. Who was the last Zebras' player who was drafted to another club, let alone ours? Just the guy we delisted, break glass in case of emergency Campbell.

The alignment may save us money, but from a playing perspective it's been an abject failure.

Let's see a proper second's set up, where we play in the saints' jumper, at our true home on a pristine surface that is of the same dimensions as Marvel.

Ditch them. Let them fight for their own identity. The alignment has weakened the once mighty Zebras as well. It's been a lose/ lose situation. We can draw players from local leagues to make up the numbers if we have to.

We always did back in the day. That way we can pick and choose who we want to have a close look at. Who would you rather call you up for a game, RTB or someone from Sandy? They are a liability. Just do it, Saints. For everyone's benefit.

Of course Sandy looked better when the majority of the team was AFL listed players. Of course the full time football program those listed players are apart of is where majority of their development happens. Water is also wet.

The main goal at Sandy is to develop the AFL players and improve their individual performance. That was achieved this year. Winning games is nice but that's not their main objective. Might suck losing by 20 points but if Keeler improved in his defensive craft, Phillipou influenced the game more than last week and Collard kicked 3 after being goalless the week before, it's been a relatively successful day for the programs objectives. You might disagree with this approach but take that up with Ross who made this very clear to Jake Bachelor that AFL listed players developing in their AFL roles is his number 1 priority.

We already run everything football at Sandy. Changing the jumper and name of where our 2nds run isnt going to change our on field approach. That's just some romantic notion created by fans. And no matter the name of our 2nds program, it's going to be the same bloke not called Ross Lyon ringing up the fill ins.

 

[BrutThough]

It would help attract some players if the were playing in St.Kilda colors at Moorabbin, in front of RTB, SOS and co. and occasionally training with the senior group.

My son plays in the ammos (see my previous post). The Zebs are not a desired location.

The only people who care about them playing in Saints colours are a subsection of Saints fans. Ross and SOS already attend Sandy games - we dont need to change the name and colours for that to happen. Sandy listed players have trained with the main group all season.

 

[Diehard Saint]

All afl affiliated vfl clubs are inextricably linked to the fortunes of the afl club. If you have plenty of mature depth and a good run with injuries then the vfl side is usually travelling well.

This year for example we have 2 academy and 1 father son coming in, list spots are tight and mature depth is leaving. In another year that might have meant we kept Ross, Membrey and Hayes. I don’t see any reason to panic about sandy I watch them to see our young guys developing not desperately looking for wins and finals.

I think if I was going to make one change with a view to benefiting both clubs it would be offering a mature quality servant of the club a playing and development role. A guy like Seb Ross imo would have made a good sandy captain with a development roll. St Kilda fund it and the guy gets two years to launch his coaching career and we benefit from having a two time B&F with something left in the tank running around with the young guys.

Imo something like that would be pretty popular with the fan base and actually benefit both clubs. I wouldn’t lock it in as something we’d always do, you obviously need the right player. Perhaps in a year where no one suitable was available we could commit an extra $50k to recruit a quality top up.

This is a great idea.

 

[sammm]

The only time the zebs looked any good was when the team had the most number of St.Kilda players on the field. I watched them play a number of times live this year and a couple of times on tv, so I have a reasonable sample size to draw on.

If they're doing so well, as you claim, ask yourself when was the last time they made finals? There is not a single player on our list drafted from the zebs.

We don't draw players from there and player improvement and development happens because all listed players train full time at Moorabbin, separate from Sandringham.

The players also have to play in that windswept, postage stamp sized, poorly surfaced shithole, TTBBO. Who'd want to play there?

What do I want to see? How about we take a leaf out of Hawthorn/Box Hills book? Premierships, competitiveness and senior listed players from Box Hill hawks becoming regular senior players.

We've even pinched one from Box Hill and put him on our list in Max Hall. Who was the last Zebras' player who was drafted to another club, let alone ours? Just the guy we delisted, break glass in case of emergency Campbell.

The alignment may save us money, but from a playing perspective it's been an abject failure.

Let's see a proper second's set up, where we play in the saints' jumper, at our true home on a pristine surface that is of the same dimensions as Marvel.

Ditch them. Let them fight for their own identity. The alignment has weakened the once mighty Zebras as well. It's been a lose/ lose situation. We can draw players from local leagues to make up the numbers if we have to.

We always did back in the day. That way we can pick and choose who we want to have a close look at. Who would you rather call you up for a game, RTB or someone from Sandy? They are a liability. Just do it, Saints. For everyone's benefit.

Yes we pinched one from Box Hill, but we then didn't keep him in the midfield which i thought was why we recruited him? what was the point?

 

[The Punter]

All afl affiliated vfl clubs are inextricably linked to the fortunes of the afl club. If you have plenty of mature depth and a good run with injuries then the vfl side is usually travelling well.

This year for example we have 2 academy and 1 father son coming in, list spots are tight and mature depth is leaving. In another year that might have meant we kept Ross, Membrey and Hayes. I don’t see any reason to panic about sandy I watch them to see our young guys developing not desperately looking for wins and finals.

I think if I was going to make one change with a view to benefiting both clubs it would be offering a mature quality servant of the club a playing and development role. A guy like Seb Ross imo would have made a good sandy captain with a development roll. St Kilda fund it and the guy gets two years to launch his coaching career and we benefit from having a two time B&F with something left in the tank running around with the young guys.

Imo something like that would be pretty popular with the fan base and actually benefit both clubs. I wouldn’t lock it in as something we’d always do, you obviously need the right player. Perhaps in a year where no one suitable was available we could commit an extra $50k to recruit a quality top up.

Didn't Sam Gilbert do something like this in 2019?

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Yes we pinched one from Box Hill, but we then didn't keep him in the midfield which i thought was why we recruited him? what was the point?

Didn't Hall get injured just as he had started getting some midfield minutes?

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Your last comment is interesting. Hawks don't have a guarantee of a list spot, don't think any other club does or ever will. Yet they are successfully attracting talent.



Hawthorn and Newcombe used very questionable tactics to get what they wanted. Didn't the AFL change the rules after they exploited it?

I don't agree that Hawthorn have mined Box Hill. In fact, this year we picked up the best Box Hill player before them. A look at their history shows they've had a few hits, Mitchell & Newcombe the obvious ones. But there were plenty more who have played at Box Hill and been drafted to other clubs.
........


Anyway, I expect to be joked about or mocked now that I've questioned this. But I think it's irresponsible of the club to give up a spot.

If I was the club and had the idea, I would've asked the AFL for an opportunity to grow the VFL and Sandy by offering a Cat B rookie spot...

I don't like it, I understand the theory as has been explained plenty. Some will understand the long game, others will find it irresponsible. It's one of those decisions where it will only be agreed upon in 10 years time, just like our move to Seaford.

Not sure if they have changed it, but yes, they got him to put a stack of coin on his head so that no one else could pick him.