Game Day NAB Wk 1 Crows Vs Saints Vs Power

[alex_is_on_fire]

Thankfully Sanderson learn his craft at a Victorian club that built a list and developed success from doing that instead of hanging onto every little bit of hope that the best 22 theory will win a premiership and squeeze every bit of life of of them.

He understands that a premiership is won by a squad of 35 to 38 players, not your best 22.

We may have only lost the preliminary final by a few points last year but we still need to find a way of getting better and getting better for the next few years, just in case we don't get that change to win the premiership this year.

Thankfully Sanderson came from a club that didn't put all it's eggs in the one basket in hope of winning one flag, they developed a system that allowed them to win multipul premierships by building upon that team with younger players come into the system.

If some people had their way, Joel Selwood, Tom Hawkins and a few other geelong players would be playing VFL as they didn't fit the best 22 theory in their first year.

 

[ftmch]

Blight shouldn't have played Edwards, Goodwin or Johnson in 1997 because we were a chance for the flag.

Better to stick with proven solid performers like Tregenza, Liptak, McCartney...

We finished 12th in 96. I don't think anyone (including us) started the year expecting we would be a genuine chance for the flag. The end result definitely justified their selection, but Blighty's platform from which the decision was made to promote youth over experience (and 'solid' types) was made a shiteload easier due to the piss poor year we have before that.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

We finished 12th in 96. I don't think anyone (including us) started the year expecting we would be a genuine chance for the flag. The end result definitely justified their selection, but Blighty's platform from which the decision was made to promote youth over experience (and 'solid' types) was made a shiteload easier due to the piss poor year we have before that.

Yeah semantics are fun...

But please tell me you understand.

Playing young players does not necessarily equal a development / bottom 8 finishing year

Yeah?

 

[ftmch]

Yeah semantics are fun...

But please tell me you understand.

Playing young players does not necessarily equal a development / bottom 8 finishing year

Yeah?

There's a guy in my team at work who I really struggle to manage and reason with, because I just cannot for the life of me work out where he is coming from. He jumps all over the place with his logic in a manner that leaves me mentally rooted every time I have to have a discussion with him. Your name isn't 'John' in real life is it?

I'm not for a minute suggesting playing young players equals development years - and really, htf do you even arrive at that conclusion? I'm not even sure where the concept of 'old vs young' comes into it, given the alternatives we've been discussing for Crouch are also young players (eg Lyons, Riley etc..)?!

Oh, and don't forget I need you in half an hour earlier on Monday morning .

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

There's a guy in my team at work who I really struggle to manage and reason with, because I just cannot for the life of me work out where he is coming from. He jumps all over the place with his logic in a manner that leaves me mentally rooted every time I have to have a discussion with him. Your name isn't 'John' in real life is it?

I'm not for a minute suggesting playing young players equals development years - and really, htf do you even arrive at that conclusion? I'm not even sure where the concept of 'old vs young' comes into it, given the alternatives we've been discussing for Crouch are also young players (eg Lyons, Riley etc..)?!

Oh, and don't forget I need you in half an hour earlier on Monday morning .

Actually reading back it was more FAITH's post that I was linking with yours and responding to.

But you're saying that this isn't the year to play kids because we're a premiership chance. Best 22 all the way. So therefore the time to play the kids is when we're not a premiership chance.

Which is what I disagree with.

 

[ftmch]

Actually reading back it was more FAITH's post that I was linking with yours and responding to.

But you're saying that this isn't the year to play kids because we're a premiership chance. Best 22 all the way. So therefore the time to play the kids is when we're not a premiership chance.

Which is what I disagree with.

I'm not saying this isn't the year to be playing kids. We'll be playing kids regardless (Lyons, Riley, Crouch - all kids) - all some of us are suggesting is perhaps we go with the ones that can give us the better return this year. As distinct from your example in 97 where it was clearly a case of kids vs older, reliable types (Tregenza, Liptak etc..), off the back of a very poor year for us (making Blighty's decision a no brainer).

FWIW - I would be just as happy to play Crouch every game this year. Per my earlier post, there's just a strong an argument for putting him straight away, given the greater potential he's got over the others, and the fact that our 'window' is really just opening now.

 

[Tex200]

Actually reading back it was more FAITH's post that I was linking with yours and responding to.

But you're saying that this isn't the year to play kids because we're a premiership chance. Best 22 all the way. So therefore the time to play the kids is when we're not a premiership chance.

Which is what I disagree with.

Actually reading back it was more FAITH's post that I was linking with yours and responding to.

But you're saying that this isn't the year to play kids because we're a premiership chance. Best 22 all the way. So therefore the time to play the kids is when we're not a premiership chance.

Which is what I disagree with.

I dont think the concept of not playing a kid like Crouch in possible flag year arises as a deliberate strategy. Its more a by product of the side being so strong that competition for spots is intense.

We had great success fast tracking Danger but there was not a bunch of others keeping him out.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I dont think the concept of not playing a kid like Crouch in possible flag year arises as a deliberate strategy. Its more a by product of the side being so strong that competition for spots is intense.

We had great success fast tracking Danger but there was not a bunch of others keeping him out.

And this is the key point.

Let's say that in Danger's formative years we had Knights, Symes, Shirley, Doughty, Skipworth and co (or whoever our players were back then) playing better football.

Does that mean that Danger doesn't play?

Fast forward 4-5 years and he's arguably our best player. The raw mistakes he was making in his first few seasons have been ironed out (to a degree!), he's learned to play in the AFL environment rather than the SANFL one. I don't think he'd be the player he is now if he'd spent the first couple of seasons in the SANFL, or even going back and forth between the two competitions.

And these arguments always come back to this. Do we rely on luck to deliver a situation where we can fast track youngsters?

Eg indifferent form of experienced players opens doors for a kid
Injuries open doors for a kid
A string of losses opens a door for a kid

Or do we make sure that the talented youngster gets games, no matter what the situation?

 

[Tex200]

And this is the key point.

Let's say that in Danger's formative years we had Knights, Symes, Shirley, Doughty, Skipworth and co (or whoever our players were back then) playing better football.

Does that mean that Danger doesn't play?

Fast forward 4-5 years and he's arguably our best player. The raw mistakes he was making in his first few seasons have been ironed out (to a degree!), he's learned to play in the AFL environment rather than the SANFL one. I don't think he'd be the player he is now if he'd spent the first couple of seasons in the SANFL, or even going back and forth between the two competitions.

And these arguments always come back to this. Do we rely on luck to deliver a situation where we can fast track youngsters?

Eg indifferent form of experienced players opens doors for a kid
Injuries open doors for a kid
A string of losses opens a door for a kid

Or do we make sure that the talented youngster gets games, no matter what the situation?

I hear what your saying. But in this case I don't think we are talking a Symes or Skipworth type. Lyons and Riley are generally unknown quantities with it being too early to write them off as list cloggers. I dont think we have hit the ceiling with either of them.

It's a very fine line though and difficult to spot the wrong answer

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Either way, I'd like to see the coaches identify the player(s) they believe will be the best long term, and to back those players and their judgment in.

Eg rather than Kerridge, Lyons, Crouch and Riley all getting 5-6 games this season, I'd rather see a couple of them play 12, the others zero.

I've touched on it in another thread but I thought we spread the playing opportunities too thinly across our squad last season which in the end benefited no one.

 

[PykeDream]

Either way, I'd like to see the coaches identify the player(s) they believe will be the best long term, and to back those players and their judgment in.

Eg rather than Kerridge, Lyons, Crouch and Riley all getting 5-6 games this season, I'd rather see a couple of them play 12, the others zero.

I've touched on it in another thread but I thought we spread the playing opportunities too thinly across our squad last season which in the end benefited no one.

I think it was a combination of the very prominent good luck and the less obvious bad luck we had last year.

Good luck being we had hardly any injuries and the ones we did have were very short term.

Bad luck being young players in the mix were injured at times of opportunity; Lyons (hammy), Riley (broken hand) and we were forced to give games to Knights, Jaensch and Symes (ugh), with one quarter each for Tambling and Kerridge as well as two token dead rubbers for Brown.

There were a few howlers in there like dropping Lyons after he was starting to get going for an underdone Douglas and playing Jaensch in Round 23. However there wasn't much that could have been different. Our young blokes were getting a few niggling injuries and our durable spuds were invariably available and putting their hands up.

Also, I'd just like to say that despite his many shortcomings, Neil Craig's handling of Brodie Smith's first season is a shining example of how to introduce a young star mid to the league.

 

[AFC979810]

I think it was a combination of the very prominent good luck and the less obvious bad luck we had last year.

Good luck being we had hardly any injuries and the ones we did have were very short term.

Bad luck being young players in the mix were injured at times of opportunity; Lyons (hammy), Riley (broken hand) and we were forced to give games to Knights, Jaensch and Symes (ugh), with one quarter each for Tambling and Kerridge as well as two token dead rubbers for Brown.

There were a few howlers in there like dropping Lyons after he was starting to get going for an underdone Douglas and playing Jaensch in Round 23. However there wasn't much that could have been different. Our young blokes were getting a few niggling injuries and our durable spuds were invariably available and putting their hands up.

Also, I'd just like to say that despite his many shortcomings, Neil Craig's handling of Brodie Smith's first season is a shining example of how to introduce a young star mid to the league.

Quality post. Loved the way that Brodie Smith has been handled. 14 games in his first season and 22 games in his second season... Has now had 3 preseasons - learnt the AFL caper by playing off a half back flank with occassional stints through the middle. Such a shame about his collarbone.

I disagree with Carl about how we managed our young players last year. We had a 1 in 100 season with regards to injuries so the opportunities weren't there for younger players - yet we still managed to introduce Lyons (3games), Brown (3games), Kerridge (1game) to AFL footy and got some games into Riley (5).

For me - this year I would love to see Lyons, Brown, Kerridge all get between 5-10 games with Crouch getting at least 15 games.

Riley will be an interesting one. To be honest I can't see all what everyone is so excited about with him. I admit that I don't follow SANFL form too closely, but I haven't seen anything during his 10 AFL games that have made me be assured he will be successful in AFL footy. To me he seems like this years Brodie Martin on this board. As a hard nosed midfielder - think he will struggle to get into the side as we already have an abundance of tough ball winning midfielders - we lack pace and run and carry which I think Lyons is perfect for. Would much much rather see Lyons get games over Riley.

 

[AFC979810]

Either way, I'd like to see the coaches identify the player(s) they believe will be the best long term, and to back those players and their judgment in.

Eg rather than Kerridge, Lyons, Crouch and Riley all getting 5-6 games this season, I'd rather see a couple of them play 12, the others zero.

I've touched on it in another thread but I thought we spread the playing opportunities too thinly across our squad last season which in the end benefited no one.

I touched on this in the post above - but i love the idea of giving young players 1-2 games of AFL football in their first season (or when their body is AFL ready) and spreading it amongst 5-6 players rather than giving 2 players 12 games each.

Giving them 1-2 games allows them to understand what the pace of AFL is like, how hard they will need to work and give them a proper taste. I think then the second / third season can be used to pump more games into them and see if they will be AFL quality. Obviously this isn't the case for highly talented first round draft picks (Smith/Crouch) who I think should be given/gifted (whatever you want to call it) more than 10 games.

 

[spenze]

Finally watched the Port game this morning and to me Jenkins was very impressive, 4 opportunities at goal is a good return for the bigfella. Tambling was there and abouts but his disposal just isn't AFL quality, I'm happy to be proven wrong but I just can't see a spot for him going forward.

 

[azza77]

True.. but how do you measure that? And when?

Right now, Riley and Lyons are ahead of Crouch in their development. However, if Crouch were to play the majority of the year in the AFL then I have little doubt that he would be ahead of them by the time finals (2013) roll around. Crouch has nothing left to learn from the SANFL and the only way he can continue to develop is to play him at the highest level.

Neither Riley nor Lyons have the extreme potential that Crouch has - but both are ahead of him right now. Does that mean we should play them now, if doing so ******s Crouch's development (to the long term detriment of the team)? I think not, though I can understand why others would lean towards Riley & Lyons - particularly given their good performances on Sunday evening.

I think we are seriously underestimating both Riley and Lyons here. We are all talking up Crouch as if 15 AFL games is going to turn him into a frekaing God. while he may have massive upside, i honestly dont think Riley and Lyons are that far behind. Both of them are showing a lot of promise and look to become very, very good players. While we need to fast track Crouch's development, id still feel safer and be comfortable with Riley or Lyons in the side.

 

[azza77]

Either way, I'd like to see the coaches identify the player(s) they believe will be the best long term, and to back those players and their judgment in.

Eg rather than Kerridge, Lyons, Crouch and Riley all getting 5-6 games this season, I'd rather see a couple of them play 12, the others zero.

I've touched on it in another thread but I thought we spread the playing opportunities too thinly across our squad last season which in the end benefited no one.

seriously disagree. Crows have too many quality youngsters on their list to only be giving 2 of them 12 games and 0 to the others. Need to share the load around and develop as many of these youngsters on our list. there is some serious quality there.

 

[azza77]

Riley will be an interesting one. To be honest I can't see all what everyone is so excited about with him. I admit that I don't follow SANFL form too closely, but I haven't seen anything during his 10 AFL games that have made me be assured he will be successful in AFL footy. To me he seems like this years Brodie Martin on this board. As a hard nosed midfielder - think he will struggle to get into the side as we already have an abundance of tough ball winning midfielders - we lack pace and run and carry which I think Lyons is perfect for. Would much much rather see Lyons get games over Riley.

You're joking right. In the very few games riley has played he has looked like some player and I for one am extremely keen to see where he can take his career. Brilliant around the contests and is extremely composed + makes good decision witht he ball for someone who hasnt even reached the 20 game mark yet. Think he is a very good replacement for Scott Thompson when the time comes and we are lucky to have a player of his potential on our list in terms of his inside game. Riley, Danger, Crouch, Sloane, Wright. that could become one of the most dominant clearance midfield departments if they continue tracking the way they have.

 

[Vader]

I think we are seriously underestimating both Riley and Lyons here. We are all talking up Crouch as if 15 AFL games is going to turn him into a frekaing God. while he may have massive upside, i honestly dont think Riley and Lyons are that far behind. Both of them are showing a lot of promise and look to become very, very good players. While we need to fast track Crouch's development, id still feel safer and be comfortable with Riley or Lyons in the side.

In terms of upside.. Crouch is a potential Rolls Royce, Riley is a potential Hilux (hard working & honest), Lyons is a potential HSV Commodore. The gap is vast, with Crouch's potential so far ahead of the others that it's pointless to even try comparing them.

 

[azza77]

In terms of upside.. Crouch is a potential Rolls Royce, Riley is a potential Hilux (hard working & honest), Lyons is a potential HSV Commodore. The gap is vast, with Crouch's potential so far ahead of the others that it's pointless to even try comparing them.

we all supposedly know and think that, but to this date, Riley and Lyons have looked way more comfortable and damaging at afl level. i know we dont have much to judge crouch on but the kid is 19. we were one kick away from the grand final, and if it comes down to that this year again id feel more comfortable having either of the two in side, AT this point in time i must add.


On a side note, apparently lewis johnston is looking very dangerous in the match against freo at the moment. good signs for the young fella

 

[AFC979810]

You're joking right. In the very few games riley has played he has looked like some player and I for one am extremely keen to see where he can take his career. Brilliant around the contests and is extremely composed + makes good decision witht he ball for someone who hasnt even reached the 20 game mark yet. Think he is a very good replacement for Scott Thompson when the time comes and we are lucky to have a player of his potential on our list in terms of his inside game. Riley, Danger, Crouch, Sloane, Wright. that could become one of the most dominant clearance midfield departments if they continue tracking the way they have.

Just haven't seen what everyone else sees. I have seen all of his games. Was almost invisible in his games in 2011. Last year played 5 games - however you can't count the Sydney game and Freo games as he was a sub and played less than 20% of each game. The other three games were against sub standard midfields in Gold Coast / Melbourne / Essendon and I think he was serviceable.

From what I have seen I like the fact he is tough and can win his own footy. Gets a heap of contested possessions and is tough.

I think in our current midfield we have plenty of ballwinners (Thommo/Danger/Wright/Sloane/Crouch). I don't think he gets a game ahead of any of those players. He reminds me of a poor mans 2011 Dangerfield. Can win the hardball, but doesn't get enough uncontested footy to hurt the opposition. I think that in 2012 we have plenty of ballwinning ability in our midfield and therefore Lyons (and his pace and quality disposal) should get the nod ahead of him.

 

[AFC979810]

we all supposedly know and think that, but to this date, Riley and Lyons have looked way more comfortable and damaging at afl level. i know we dont have much to judge crouch on but the kid is 19. we were one kick away from the grand final, and if it comes down to that this year again id feel more comfortable having either of the two in side, AT this point in time i must add.


On a side note, apparently lewis johnston is looking very dangerous in the match against freo at the moment. good signs for the young fella

Riley and Lyons haven't shown any damage at AFL level. Lyons hasn't touched the footy more than 7 times in a game and Riley has gotten over 15 possies as a midfielder 3 times (2 of those were in a 90+ point blow out against Gold Coast and a 70 point blow out against Melbourne).

Give me Crouch any day of the week.

 

[Footypie32]

I wouldn't be surprised if Vince gets dropped at some stage this year. Has been coasting for awhile. Would be happy to see Lyons take his spot.

 

[azza77]

Riley and Lyons haven't shown any damage at AFL level. Lyons hasn't touched the footy more than 7 times in a game and Riley has gotten over 15 possies as a midfielder 3 times (2 of those were in a 90+ point blow out against Gold Coast and a 70 point blow out against Melbourne).

Give me Crouch any day of the week.

All im trying to say is that one more year mostly in the Sanfl with some stints at AFL isnt going to destroy crouch. i think riley and lyons have shown a bit and should still at this stage and should still be entitled to games as well. a lot of supports seemed to have their head so wrapped around crouch its not funny. yes hes going to be a jet, but like i said hes 19, hes still got the world ahead of him. need to develop other players than just 1 inside midfielder.

 

[azza77]

Keplar spud Bradley misses near the end and crows win by 5. Josh Jenkins is a freak. Brilliant pick up in the light of he who must not be named leaving.

 

[AFC979810]

All im trying to say is that one more year mostly in the Sanfl with some stints at AFL isnt going to destroy crouch. i think riley and lyons have shown a bit and should still at this stage and should still be entitled to games as well. a lot of supports seemed to have their head so wrapped around crouch its not funny. yes hes going to be a jet, but like i said hes 19, hes still got the world ahead of him. need to develop other players than just 1 inside midfielder.

I think that 1 more year in the SANFL will hurt Crouch's development. What is he going to learn there? If he went into last years draft he would have been a top 5 draft pick - except with the advantage of an extra preseason and a year playing against men in the SANFL. The kid is the highest rated talent we have ever had at this club and has an AFL ready body. We must play him....

I understand that we have never had a mature bodied midfield high draft pick - but we need to look at what the other clubs have done with their top 5 high draft pick midfielders in their first season.... I will start from 2001 - 2009 (and use only midfielders) so that we can see what has become of these players (and we successfully exclude GWS and GC and Port who were gifting games to everyone)..

2001 - Luke Hodge (15 games) / Luke Ball (0 games/ chose to play for xavier college instead played 16 games in his debut year of 2003) / Chris Judd (22 games) / Xavier Clarke (16 games).

2002 - Goddard (20 games) / Wells (18 games) / Brennan (7 games- *defender) / Jarred McVeigh (0 games)
2003 - Cooney (19 games) / Walker ( 15 games *forward) / Sylvia (3 games) / Ray (7 games) / McLean (9 games).

2004 - Deledio (22 games) / Griffen (17 games) / Tambling (12 games).

2005 - Murphy ( 13 games) / Thomas (16 games) / Ellis (0 games) / Pendlebury (9 games).

2006 - Gibbs (22 games) / Boak (14 games)

2007 - Cotchin (15 games) / Masten (9 games) / Morton (18 games)

2008 - Hill (22 games) / Hartlett (11 games)

2009 - Scully (21 games) / Trengrove (18 games) / Martin (21) / Morabitto (23 games) / Cunnington (18 games).

As you can see the majority of these players played over 15 games in their first seasons. I realise the majority of the teams that drafted these players were at the bottom of the ladder and had easier sides to break into - but the majority of these players are superstars. We need to get games into Crouch... He could be something special....