Autopsy Negatives vs Hawthorn

[JuddyisGod]

If Brander was asked for in that trade he would barely have been the steak knives, Geelong would have still wanted a couple of high picks.
I don't think the Cats ever contemplated trading him after one year and the Brander thing was media conjecture rather than concrete demands.

'Absolutely not': Former No.13 pick not part of Kelly trade

The quotes were very strong

 

[WCE Wizard]

The older young players apart from Oscar and JJ lack skill. The players from the last two drafts show more promise but need a core team around them to help them as you say.

Back in 2010 we were bad but had the core of a very very good team (Shuey, JK, Masten, Gaff (drafted), Nic Nat, Lycett, Darling (drafted), Hurn, Sheppard, Priddis, Lecras) and mentored by older legends like Cox, Glass, Kerr and Embley. Now at the moment its the younger players are expected to do a lore more of the heavy lifting

 

[WCE Wizard]

Go check those draft picks we gave up and who was taken with them, then make a case for any of them being any good in our team (hint: one of the first round selections has already been delisted).

Our biggest list management problem is that our best players from 2019 fell off a cliff due to their bodies breaking down. Gaff, Yeo, Shuey, Gov, Nic Nat. No team can draft quick enough to replace their (then late 20s) senior core. Look at Collingwood and Geelong and see how many of their best 22 are in their early 30s and still performing. That's what we're missing.

Agreed, the core of our team has missed significant amounts of footy i would throw Mcgovern in that mix as well has barely played since about 2020 its a lot of pain for us sadly

 

[Astro7]

Chesser is a good size,moved ok, not scared, how many games has he played? Give him a break.
Long,Gibney,Cully,Ryan,Barass,Hewitt,OA,Burgeil?? Barnett,??
We will have a good core going forward. We need to scrape a couple of seasons out of three of six people. Yo,NN,Shuey,Cripps,Gov and whoever.
The MSD is important. Definitely need two picks minimum and if possible three.Go young go potential!
Forget drafting rejects from other clubs that’s a recipe for mediocrity!
If Hewitt was fit why wasn’t he picked today? I don’t care if he can’t run out a game he’s got more talent in his little finger than half the crabs out there today.

Yeah some over reactions after today forsure. Some of the definitive comments about the kids is laughable. Wait until they have a season or two of games under the belt and exposure with a competent team around them before we judge too harshly.

I get it. No positives can be observed from a loss like today.. but understand where we are at in the cycle. A team rebuilding who is expected to be bottom 4. Then add 2200 games of experience out with injuries and you get our current formline. This shouldn't be a shock.

The biggest concern is the trend in injuries. This must be #1 priority moving forward. Spend what you must. Pay the extra 200%, just do it seriously.

It is beyond ridiculous to be having a crack at Chesser at this point- he's played 4 AFL games (and got injured in the one he seemed to be starting to find his straps in). He's just been rushed back into the senior side after a 6 week layoff with a knee injuries, in any other club in the league at the moment he'd get a game or two in the WAFL to build form and fitness..He might be a complete dud, he might be an excellent player, but I'd like to see at least a solid month of injury free football in a stable role before even trying to guess whether he lives up to the draft pedigree.

But on a related note, one slightly concerning feature of west coast's drafting is how often we tend to swoop on chronically injured draftees who were highly rated but have slipped down the draft order for that reason. Chesser was a classic example of that, rated as a top 10 pick until he tore his meniscus as an u18, slipped to 14 as a result.

Sometimes it results in bargains but it is also a pretty good way of assembling a list of fragile players.

******* lol at campaigners writing Chesser off after his first game back from injury.

Not writing him off, having a crack at him or over-reacting - and fully understand his lack of experience and even match fitness (should've spent more time in WAFL); just saying as yet in what limited game time we've seen him play, he doesn't display any obvious or stand out traits or skills even. Sure, I get it's early days and he will be a different beast with another 2 seasons under his belt - but, unlike Long, Ginbey and Hewett, we are yet to see anything of interest or value. Long, Ginbey and Hewett showed something straight away. Not all players are same, some take a while to develop, I get that. Certainly not dumping on him or criticising him. It is what it is, he's fairly unremarkable at this stage. Next week he might have a moment when he's very remarkable?

 

[Astro7]

Discussing tactically how we failed (at least one of the ways), looking at the overall statistics for the team we weren't blown out of the water in clearances 44 v 37. Beaten, sure, but not decisively. Despite this we had an enormous disparity in inside 50s - 70 v 29.
That means that while Hawthorn averaged 17.5 i50s per quarter, we averaged 7.25 i50s per quarter. I wanted to analysis our forward 50s (as limited as they were) to ascertain

1st quarter
19:45 - An O'Neill kick towards the 50m clears the contest where Sicily collects and handballs backwards through West Coast's forward 50 arc to Hardwick. He scrubbers a ball and Waterman is able to receive and kick inside 50 to Jamieson along the boundary line. The ball bounces over. A subsequent ball-in results in a Sheed handball to Jones who goals on the run.
12:02 - under pressure Moore steps through a West Coast tackle and West Coast's forward 50 arc and handballs back to a teammate.
11:37 - Frost handballs inside his defensive 50 to Moore and Hawthorn switch.
9:25 - Petruccelle kicks deep to a contest. Allen is present but out of position behind Frost. The ball hits the ground and is contested resulting in a stoppage. After about another 30 seconds of play Sheed is taken high in general play and converts his first goal.
4:55 - Waterman wheels around on the wing after a mark on a West Coast transition. He kicks to Jamieson who cannot make the drop of the ball and throws a foot at it. A ball up results and Hawthorn win the clearance.
4:28 - Hough skies the ball and it barely makes the West Coast forward 50. Weddle comfortably outmarks West.
2:52 - Jones awkwardly marks a Gaff switch from the top of the 50m arc that is kicked behind him (why?). He kicks to Jamieson in the forward pocket who gets fingers on the ball but is hassled by Weddle and the ball spills allowing Hawthorn easy possession.

2nd quarter
17:28 - Bailey Williams takes the ball from a throw in and kicks long from the forward flank into the forward pocket. Hawthorn has a two-on-one and the ball clears this marking contest and dribbles out of bounds.
17:01 - Jamaine Jones receives the ball after Hawthorn tried to clear their defensive 50 and kicks deep to a one-on-one. Allen out positions Blanck and throws himself backwards for our sole mark inside 50 for the game. He converts from the top of the goal square.
14:06 - Kelly receives the ball from a teammate is immediately under pressure. Kelly frantically throws the ball on his boot and places it into the general vicinity of Blanck v Allen. Unfortunately, Blanck is able to make up for the last contest and easily outmaneuvers Allen for the mark.
13:23 - Breust has the free on the back flank and kicks back inside West Coast's forward 50 for a potential switch. The ball is returned to where Breust was located to Bramble. He kicks short to Newcombe who again switches through our inside 50. The end result is we get two inside 50s, however, both were while in control by the Hawthorn players and the end result is a Hawthorn inside 50 after the switch.
12:10 - Hardwick takes a intercept mark on the back of the square for Hawthorn. He switches inside 50 to Bramble who runs outside West Coast's inside 50 and then promptly kicks it back inside 50 to Hardwick for the switch.
10:36 - Hough kicks long from a centre clearance. Hardwick outbodies his lighter opponent, runs onto the bouncing ball and Hawthorn clears.
7:41 - Waterman receives a backwards pass from Allen who kicks long inside 50, straight to Day and a Hawthorn teammate. They fumble the mark and a stoppage occurs. Hawthorn subsequently clear.
6:35 - Petruccelle runs down Worpel and collects a free. He kicks to about 20m out. Reeves is the only player there and marks uncontested. The ball is cleared and Hawthorn have a scoring opportunity down the other end of the ground.
2:30 - Sheed receives a well placed handball from a contest following a ball-in. He turns on the 50m arc and fires accurately with his left foot for his second goal.
1:31 - After the Hawthorn defenders have a chance to set up Duggan kicks about 50m, straight to Sicily who marks.

3rd quarter
19:42 - Sheed wins a holding-the-ball free at the first bounce down. He wheels and kicks long. Sicily is in the box seat at the front of the pack. The ball comes to ground and Kelly kicks the ball out-on-the-full.
17:51 - Allen running off the bench receives the handball from Petruccelle and kicks long. Day is in position to effect the turnover.
17:18 - the ball incidentally crosses West Coast's 50m line during a stoppage. Hawthorn win the subsequent contested ball and clear.
16:40 - Hunt receives the handball on the wing and kicks long. Mitchell is in position 1A and draws the West Coast forward allowing Frost to clear down the centre. Lewis marks in the goal square with the inevitable result.
14:02 - a scrubber kick from Chesser from a clearance on the half forward flank goes about 5m. Waterman picks up but is smothered and Hawthorn clear momentarily.
13:45 - After Hawthorn clear above Duggan is on the end of a favourable bounce in the centre square and kicks long. The kick is favourable to two West Coast players (not Allen), however, they collide with a Hawthorn player leaving Impey to mop up.
13:15 - the ball bounces inside West Coast's forward 50 inadvertently at the back end of a throw-in. O'Neill gives up the ball in a tackle and Nash runs the ball through the centre for another Lewis goal.
12:02 - the ball comes off the two ruckmen's hands into the West Coast forward 50. The ball is contested for a couple of moments and then is tied up.
11:52 - West reads the tap well from the subsequent ball up but is swamped by Hawthorn midfielders at the top of the 50 and his attempted kick is smothered resulting in a Sicily bomb.
11:30 - Clark kicks from just on 50m near the boundary to the top of the goalsquare. There is a two-on-two (including Waterman and Allen). The ball comes to ground and is hustled over the boundary line next to the point post.
11:05 - Worpel's kick from a clearance bounces on its point outside of West Coast's forward 50 and then bounces high back inside. The ball is contested and a ball-up results. There is a subsequent inside 50 momentarily as Hawthorn clear from the clearance.
10:15 - West marks in space but misses Waterman from about 35m away. Hawthorn clear with handballs.
6:09 - Foley kicks long to a nest of Hawks. Somehow the ball alludes them and falls to Jamieson. This results in the technical rundown by Petruccelle who kicks a behind only.
2:47 - O'Neill kicks along the boundary to Waterman in a two-on-one. The two easily prevail and shuffle the ball over the boundary line for a stoppage.

4th quarter
19:52 - Kelly kicks high from the first bounce down. Sicily forces the ball to the boundary line.
19:37 - Sheed receives the handball outside the clearance and almost kicks an exceptional goal, hitting the post from 50m on the boundary line.
15:02 - Witherden kicks to Allen's slight advantage deep in the forward pocket. Allen draws a crowd and the ball is brought to ground and forced over the boundary line.
4:45 - after a 50m penalty Williams receives a short pass and kicks deep to a large pack. Allen rises but is unable to bring the ball down. Hardwick is at the back of the pack to switch and Hawthorn clear.
2:20 - Petruccelle receives a suprisingly effective handball from Gaff and bursts through West Coast's fifty metre line and is off to the races. Unfortunately, he leaves the ball behind and Impey collects the ground ball enabling Hawthorn to retain possession.

Takeaways
Our game against Hawthorn produced one of the most inept attacking attempts from a "professional" football club that I've ever seen.
We attempted long 50+ metre kicks inside 50 on the majority of occasions with only one singular positive result (Allen's mark and goal in the 2nd quarter).
Further, Allen was barely utilised as a target and I only counted two occasions when he was in a genuine one-on-one (he won one and was beaten once).
Jamieson was the target in a number of instances and only took one mark (uncontested) for the game. He simply was unable to be competitive even against inexperienced players such as Weddle and Blanck, let alone Sicily and Frost.
It is telling that Sicily had the most inside 50s for the game (7) and 5 score involvements to go with his 11 marks and 11 intercept possessions.
It is clear that, like him or hate him, Darling makes a substantial difference to our structure when the opposition have multiple tall defenders (as most clubs do).

Up until very recently Darling has been dependable for us (as far as making it onto the park as well as playing very high percentages of game time). Given Darling's age, injury concerns and form this is simply untenable for us to rely upon in 2023, let alone beyond this year.
Looking at our list Jack Williams is the only other genuine key forward on our list (apart from Allen). He is unproven at WAFL level, let alone the seniors.
It is conceivable (as has been proposed in other threads) that Barrass (or McGovern on return) will play forward.
However, this poses the further issue of key defender stocks. We have them in Edwards and Bazzo, but they're not much to write home about.

In any event a key forward is very much a stop gap if we continue to get extremely low numbers of inside 50s while retaining a propensity to blast the ball indiscriminately. It is almost as if we reverted back to type, taking on our 2022 form today.
There was so little running the ball from transition. We would've entered our inside 50 in this way less than a handful of times.
Obviously long term there are glaring issues, but in the short term we need to work out how we can translate being competitive in the clearances into scoring opportunities. Ultimately I think we've all identified that this is due to our midfield woes. We do not have enough midfielders to win it at the coal face and, when they do, we do not have midfielders who are quick enough with their decision making and execution of skills on the transition to allow us clean exits from stoppages. So while we might win technical clearances it does not have a real effect on the game or generating scoring opportunities.

Still we're in it for the long haul. The possible (?) return of some players may be a band aid over part of our midfield concerns later in the year. I'm not holding out hope.
Should we unfortunately obtain the wooden spoon and the first pick of the draft this midfield issue will improve by selecting Harley Reid who could act as a conduit between our current inside and outside mids. Further, if English becomes available as a free agent he would improve our competitiveness at the clearances (although not comparable to who we've had before) and would help tremendously as a relief marker for the long kicks down the line and during transitions. We probably need to think about diversifying our key forward stocks though. Because if Allen goes down then we're in for a world of hurt beyond what we experienced today. Probably that's who we need to target next week in the mid-season draft.

Yep, a lack of Jack affects our structure, love him or be annoyed by him, he takes up 2 good defenders.
I dread losing Ginbey next! (dare I say it, I take it back)

 

[Astro7]

It's becoming increasingly clear that the club will have to offer up a sacrificial lamb to quell the masses.
I vote for Nisbett, the tail has been wagging the dog for too long and the board needs to stand up and make the change and if the can't they need to go too.
We are a conservative, stale and boring footy club at the moment, we need new enthusiasm and ideas to give supporters hope or people will walk away in droves.
It might take a few years to soak up the in the wings members but the day will come when we can't fill the stadium with members if nothing is changed.

Nisbett is the obvious one for mine...without upsetting the rest of the club machinations too much, at this stage, and hopefully a change for the better, a start...

 

[kane249]

'Absolutely not': Former No.13 pick not part of Kelly trade

The quotes were very strong

I think Bond007 addressed this one before, Geelong were never letting him go regardless of what we offered.

At one point we did meet their trade valuation close to the deadline only for them to come back asking for ever more knowing we wouldn't match it.

 

[FKASC]

I think Bond007 addressed this one before, Geelong were never letting him go regardless of what we offered.

At one point we did meet their trade valuation close to the deadline only for them to come back asking for ever more knowing we wouldn't match it.

Or we stuffed up and Bondy is not revealing commercially confidential information to a bunch of randos online.

Perfectly reasonable to think we might have misjudged that one given where the club is at currently.

No one wants to trade out a first round pick against their will though, unless you’re getting Judd in return

 

[Flarn Rarn]

To say Geelong wouldn't have traded him under any circumstances is not true. Everyone has their price. Unfortunately at that time Kelly had more value than he ever will - he was polling Brownlow votes on a rookie wage. It was always going to be tough to find something that would reasonably satisfy them. I don't know how much of their talks were done in bad faith other than what others have said but on the surface I feel like I understand why they weren't letting him go for less than a king's ransom.

 

[Grahame]

The only thing we have struggled with in the past is trading we always give up to much and not many gun footballers nominate to be at Eagles so that is part of being in WA is very hard.

This. Geel is probably the no 1 ‘destination club’ in the AFL. Unfortunately not all clubs are equal in this respect. The WA clubs are near the bottom of the list simply because of the extreme distance. And I don’t think the AFL give a rats about any inequality to non-Vic/WA clubs.

Oh unless maybe it is disadvantaging their two ‘project clubs’ (aka money pits) where ‘AFL Enterprises’ demands they become commercial successes.

 

[mehow2g]

This. Geel is probably the no 1 ‘destination club’ in the AFL. Unfortunately not all clubs are equal in this respect. The WA clubs are near the bottom of the list simply because of the extreme distance. And I don’t think the AFL give a rats about any inequality to non-Vic/WA clubs.

Oh unless maybe it is disadvantaging their two ‘project clubs’ (aka money pits) where ‘AFL Enterprises’ demands they become commercial successes.

We are big cash cow for AFL, if it goes really bad which it most likely will AFL will give us hand outs.

 

[mehow2g]

To say Geelong wouldn't have traded him under any circumstances is not true. Everyone has their price. Unfortunately at that time Kelly had more value than he ever will - he was polling Brownlow votes on a rookie wage. It was always going to be tough to find something that would reasonably satisfy them. I don't know how much of their talks were done in bad faith other than what others have said but on the surface I feel like I understand why they weren't letting him go for less than a king's ransom.

They were in the drivers seat, we were desperate to get someone to lift a second push for the flag and they were sitting on a list that was already complete, they played it well.

 

[bitadash]

6:30-6:15 left in the second. The beginning of the end of Harry Edwards career in the AFL.
Sums up the day. Disgraceful

 

[Ishmael_]

This is what I feel is lost in the injury crisis discussion, a lot of the guys on the injury list aren't coming back and if they are, it'll be sporadically or at a much reduced output to their glory years.

Agreed but I don't think proper WC nuffies have any expectation of the olds anymore.

The real punch in the gut this year is everyone getting injured. The kids, the few elite players in the right age bracket we have, the second stringers, just everyone.

 

[garlic munchers]

'Absolutely not': Former No.13 pick not part of Kelly trade

The quotes were very strong

I remember this and to agreeing with our stance at the time.

To think he was once an emerging exciting tall.

Interesting that Brandner was well and truly written off years ago by our board and yet Harry Edwards who was drafted in the very next draft, is apparently still "a kid" who will still need time before a call can be made.

 

[Rowan18]

Agreed but I don't think proper WC nuffies have any expectation of the olds anymore.

The real punch in the gut this year is everyone getting injured. The kids, the few elite players in the right age bracket we have, the second stringers, just everyone.

What's killing me is the guaranteed 2-3 injuries per game. Last week it was Darling and JOnes. This week it was Duggan, Jones (again - lol) and possibly Allen. Oh and a bloody virus meant two players were late withdrawals. Who is it next week?

Anyone who plays all 23 games this season deserves a bonus and a special trophy. Who's in the running? I think it's only: Hunt, BW, Kelly, Ginbey and Gaff.

 

[Grahame]

Interesting that Brandner was well and truly written off years ago by our board and yet Harry Edwards who was drafted in the very next draft, is apparently still "a kid" who will still need time before a call can be made.

Yes unfortunately he has shown so little that is encouraging. But we only have five ‘next gen’ talls - J/BWilliams, HEdwards, Jamo and Barnett and we’ll need a KPF, a KPB and two rucks. Will those five provide them? And if so who does what?

 

[Bestbird]

Even more fustrating is that the at the start of the season fringe or break open in case of emergency group of players are all pretty much uninjured.

 

[RedWeddingGuest]

Hardwick gone at Richmond. And I thought WE had problems!

 

[Cornelius Roy]

Yes unfortunately he has shown so little that is encouraging. But we only have five ‘next gen’ talls - J/BWilliams, HEdwards, Jamo and Barnett and we’ll need a KPF, a KPB and two rucks. Will those five provide them? And if so who does what?

I see it as
J Williams is a forward
Barnett could be developed as either based on needs more likely KPD dependent on Williams/Jamo liklihood of success.
B Williams is a chop out ruck
Jamo is a KPD or delist
Hedwards is a delist

 

[eaglesnutcase]

Not writing him off, having a crack at him or over-reacting - and fully understand his lack of experience and even match fitness (should've spent more time in WAFL); just saying as yet in what limited game time we've seen him play, he doesn't display any obvious or stand out traits or skills even. Sure, I get it's early days and he will be a different beast with another 2 seasons under his belt - but, unlike Long, Ginbey and Hewett, we are yet to see anything of interest or value. Long, Ginbey and Hewett showed something straight away. Not all players are same, some take a while to develop, I get that. Certainly not dumping on him or criticising him. It is what it is, he's fairly unremarkable at this stage. Next week he might have a moment when he's very remarkable?

I don’t think he’s that type of player.The guy who will give you that “wow” moment.
I know it’s too early to call but he runs hard, he’s a good size and increasingly on the weekend; he hunted the ball.
We are very short on good sized athletes who hunt and hunt hard.That’s the glimpses that I’ve noted.

 

[eaglesnutcase]

A physio my mate went to recently was involved with the Eagles.
He said that NN,Yo ,Shuey and I don’t know who else; spent so much time in the gym when they were long term injured that they muscled up and he doubted any of them would ever play consistently again

 

[plays tall 1]

There's no one to blame we got a flag, the prized jewel of the competition.

The only thing we have struggled with in the past is trading we always give up to much and not many gun footballers nominate to be at Eagles so that is part of being in WA is very hard.

The only thing we’ve struggled with?!? I think we’ve found one of the 40 fans who sung the club song on the flight back from Tassie.

 

[dinnaz]

*Edwards getting a gig and still looking shithouse. He neither defends nor intercepts and with the footy coming in he's had plenty of opportunities.

*Ginbey should chill at half back for a few weeks cos he looks cooked already

*Jamieson does nothing.

*more injuries. Get out the cement pills to toughen up our princesses

 

[mehow2g]

The only thing we’ve struggled with?!? I think we’ve found one of the 40 fans who sung the club song on the flight back from Tassie.

Are you going to tell me what we are struggling with or just going to play smart ass?