Autopsy Negatives vs Hawthorn
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I think Chesser is being asked to play at AFL level before he’s really ready. What development has he had bearing in mind he was out all last year with injury - a bit unfair to criticise him at this early stage imo. Where the Club has really fallen down is the development of our players and list management and also the S&C needs addressing as well like many have said.
You cut off the liabilities section. We have LOTS of liabilities. Simpson, Gaff etc etc
Mop
Not anymore
You don't understand. Few people seem to.
I'll try and find the post that articulated it perfectly.
It's a fine. WITHIN THE CAP. Multiplied exponentially. I'm throwing random numbers here, but lets say we overspent by $100,000, we'd then have to take out $200,000 of the cap. It's a real stinger of a penalty. For context, the total soft cap (that is, payments for the football department not including the players salary)), is $6.95 million this year. $500k of that is ~7%.
Again. So it's plain. WITHIN THE SOFT CAP.
Why is it done like this?
To stop clubs with oodles of $$$ like us from outspending clubs like North who have to live within their means.
So. That's like, four physios.
Again, because that's REALLY what the club needs right now. Less S+C personnel.
Still want to go ahead?
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Mop
Not anymore
The AFL will heavily tax clubs that exceed the greatly reduced new football spending cap of $6.2 million, in a move designed to maintain parity between rich and poor clubs and save the game millions.
Under the new tax, clubs that spend more than $500,000 over the cap on football spending – which does not include player payments – would be slugged by a tax of 200 per cent for every dollar over that amount in the first year.
The AFL will heavily tax clubs who spend over the $6.2 million football cap.
The tax becomes hefty once a club exceeds the cap by more than $100,000 and increases substantially when clubs go over the cap by more than six figures over two years or three years.
The tax, which has been set following intense discussions and significant pushback from some wealthy clubs led by Richmond, West Coast and Collingwood, has a rate of 100 per cent (per dollar over), or double the amount, when club goes over the cap by between $100,000 and $250,000 just once.
But if a club repeats the over-spend between $100,000 and $250,000, then it will be hit with a tax of 150 per cent in the second year, and 200 per cent in the third year.
In the event that a club spends between $250,000 and $500,000 over the limit, the tax increases to 150 per cent (or $1.50 per dollar) in the first year of exceeding the cap. This becomes 225 per cent, or two and a quarter times the amount over the cap in year two and then 300 per cent – triple the amount over the cap – in the third year of over-spending.
For clubs that exceed the cap by more than half a million, the tax rates are enormous: 200 per cent (year one), 300 per cent in the second year and then a whopping 400 per cent in the third year.
The AFL, however, is more lenient if a club spends less than $100,000 over the cap, in any year, because the tax rate then is just 75 cents on the dollar.
All the amounts are cumulative. Thus, a club that spent $600,000 more than the cap would pay tax of $800,000 in the first year, but this would increase enormously in years two and three if it continued to exceeded the cap by that figure.
The AFL has set the AFLW cap at $625,000 and will allow teams that underspend on the men's program to use that money and exceed the AFLW cap, but it will not alllow the reverse (teams saving on AFLW and using to spend on AFL men's).
There is also an allowance for medical, mental health and health staff – doctors, pyschiatrists and pyschologists and so forth – of $200,000 and a mandatory spend of $580,000 in medical and mental health. Thus a club can spend $780,000 paying doctors, mental health specialists and other health care professionals and effectively exceed the cap by $200,000 if it is allocated in that area.
Richmond have raised the issue of the austere new cap making it harder for clubs to accomodate some players from Indigenous and disadvantaged cultural backgrounds. The AFL will give clubs an allowance for diversity in hiring.
The view of the AFL and the clubs, based on experience, is that clubs will be reluctant to deliberately spend over this draconian tax. The AFL does not know what the soft cap will be in 2023 but has still set up penalties for the third year.
Can we put this to bed now? FFS.
Under the new tax, clubs that spend more than $500,000 over the cap on football spending – which does not include player payments – would be slugged by a tax of 200 per cent for every dollar over that amount in the first year.
The AFL will heavily tax clubs who spend over the $6.2 million football cap.
The tax becomes hefty once a club exceeds the cap by more than $100,000 and increases substantially when clubs go over the cap by more than six figures over two years or three years.
The tax, which has been set following intense discussions and significant pushback from some wealthy clubs led by Richmond, West Coast and Collingwood, has a rate of 100 per cent (per dollar over), or double the amount, when club goes over the cap by between $100,000 and $250,000 just once.
But if a club repeats the over-spend between $100,000 and $250,000, then it will be hit with a tax of 150 per cent in the second year, and 200 per cent in the third year.
In the event that a club spends between $250,000 and $500,000 over the limit, the tax increases to 150 per cent (or $1.50 per dollar) in the first year of exceeding the cap. This becomes 225 per cent, or two and a quarter times the amount over the cap in year two and then 300 per cent – triple the amount over the cap – in the third year of over-spending.
For clubs that exceed the cap by more than half a million, the tax rates are enormous: 200 per cent (year one), 300 per cent in the second year and then a whopping 400 per cent in the third year.
The AFL, however, is more lenient if a club spends less than $100,000 over the cap, in any year, because the tax rate then is just 75 cents on the dollar.
All the amounts are cumulative. Thus, a club that spent $600,000 more than the cap would pay tax of $800,000 in the first year, but this would increase enormously in years two and three if it continued to exceeded the cap by that figure.
The AFL has set the AFLW cap at $625,000 and will allow teams that underspend on the men's program to use that money and exceed the AFLW cap, but it will not alllow the reverse (teams saving on AFLW and using to spend on AFL men's).
There is also an allowance for medical, mental health and health staff – doctors, pyschiatrists and pyschologists and so forth – of $200,000 and a mandatory spend of $580,000 in medical and mental health. Thus a club can spend $780,000 paying doctors, mental health specialists and other health care professionals and effectively exceed the cap by $200,000 if it is allocated in that area.
Richmond have raised the issue of the austere new cap making it harder for clubs to accomodate some players from Indigenous and disadvantaged cultural backgrounds. The AFL will give clubs an allowance for diversity in hiring.
The view of the AFL and the clubs, based on experience, is that clubs will be reluctant to deliberately spend over this draconian tax. The AFL does not know what the soft cap will be in 2023 but has still set up penalties for the third year.
Can we put this to bed now? FFS.
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Mop
Not anymore
Presuming we use every $ of our soft cap currently which I imagine we do.
Call Adam Simpson's salary in the midpoint of the quoted figure, making it $850,000 for the sake of argument.
For the sake of simplicity he's got 2.5 years left on his deal, the remaining
If we pay him out season by season.
$425000 x 1.5 = $637,000
Next year it's 300% for the full season.
$850,000 x 3 = $2.55 million
2025?
$850,000 x 4 = $3.4 million. Half the ****ing total soft cap right there.
Pay it out in one total lump sum? Yeah, okay.
He'd be due a total payout of just over $2 million. $2.125m to be precise. Cop one penalty? $4.3 million out at once for next season. 2/3 of the cap.
Just. Not. Feasible.
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Discussing tactically how we failed (at least one of the ways), looking at the overall statistics for the team we weren't blown out of the water in clearances 44 v 37. Beaten, sure, but not decisively. Despite this we had an enormous disparity in inside 50s - 70 v 29.
That means that while Hawthorn averaged 17.5 i50s per quarter, we averaged 7.25 i50s per quarter. I wanted to analysis our forward 50s (as limited as they were) to ascertain
1st quarter
19:45 - An O'Neill kick towards the 50m clears the contest where Sicily collects and handballs backwards through West Coast's forward 50 arc to Hardwick. He scrubbers a ball and Waterman is able to receive and kick inside 50 to Jamieson along the boundary line. The ball bounces over. A subsequent ball-in results in a Sheed handball to Jones who goals on the run.
12:02 - under pressure Moore steps through a West Coast tackle and West Coast's forward 50 arc and handballs back to a teammate.
11:37 - Frost handballs inside his defensive 50 to Moore and Hawthorn switch.
9:25 - Petruccelle kicks deep to a contest. Allen is present but out of position behind Frost. The ball hits the ground and is contested resulting in a stoppage. After about another 30 seconds of play Sheed is taken high in general play and converts his first goal.
4:55 - Waterman wheels around on the wing after a mark on a West Coast transition. He kicks to Jamieson who cannot make the drop of the ball and throws a foot at it. A ball up results and Hawthorn win the clearance.
4:28 - Hough skies the ball and it barely makes the West Coast forward 50. Weddle comfortably outmarks West.
2:52 - Jones awkwardly marks a Gaff switch from the top of the 50m arc that is kicked behind him (why?). He kicks to Jamieson in the forward pocket who gets fingers on the ball but is hassled by Weddle and the ball spills allowing Hawthorn easy possession.
2nd quarter
17:28 - Bailey Williams takes the ball from a throw in and kicks long from the forward flank into the forward pocket. Hawthorn has a two-on-one and the ball clears this marking contest and dribbles out of bounds.
17:01 - Jamaine Jones receives the ball after Hawthorn tried to clear their defensive 50 and kicks deep to a one-on-one. Allen out positions Blanck and throws himself backwards for our sole mark inside 50 for the game. He converts from the top of the goal square.
14:06 - Kelly receives the ball from a teammate is immediately under pressure. Kelly frantically throws the ball on his boot and places it into the general vicinity of Blanck v Allen. Unfortunately, Blanck is able to make up for the last contest and easily outmaneuvers Allen for the mark.
13:23 - Breust has the free on the back flank and kicks back inside West Coast's forward 50 for a potential switch. The ball is returned to where Breust was located to Bramble. He kicks short to Newcombe who again switches through our inside 50. The end result is we get two inside 50s, however, both were while in control by the Hawthorn players and the end result is a Hawthorn inside 50 after the switch.
12:10 - Hardwick takes a intercept mark on the back of the square for Hawthorn. He switches inside 50 to Bramble who runs outside West Coast's inside 50 and then promptly kicks it back inside 50 to Hardwick for the switch.
10:36 - Hough kicks long from a centre clearance. Hardwick outbodies his lighter opponent, runs onto the bouncing ball and Hawthorn clears.
7:41 - Waterman receives a backwards pass from Allen who kicks long inside 50, straight to Day and a Hawthorn teammate. They fumble the mark and a stoppage occurs. Hawthorn subsequently clear.
6:35 - Petruccelle runs down Worpel and collects a free. He kicks to about 20m out. Reeves is the only player there and marks uncontested. The ball is cleared and Hawthorn have a scoring opportunity down the other end of the ground.
2:30 - Sheed receives a well placed handball from a contest following a ball-in. He turns on the 50m arc and fires accurately with his left foot for his second goal.
1:31 - After the Hawthorn defenders have a chance to set up Duggan kicks about 50m, straight to Sicily who marks.
3rd quarter
19:42 - Sheed wins a holding-the-ball free at the first bounce down. He wheels and kicks long. Sicily is in the box seat at the front of the pack. The ball comes to ground and Kelly kicks the ball out-on-the-full.
17:51 - Allen running off the bench receives the handball from Petruccelle and kicks long. Day is in position to effect the turnover.
17:18 - the ball incidentally crosses West Coast's 50m line during a stoppage. Hawthorn win the subsequent contested ball and clear.
16:40 - Hunt receives the handball on the wing and kicks long. Mitchell is in position 1A and draws the West Coast forward allowing Frost to clear down the centre. Lewis marks in the goal square with the inevitable result.
14:02 - a scrubber kick from Chesser from a clearance on the half forward flank goes about 5m. Waterman picks up but is smothered and Hawthorn clear momentarily.
13:45 - After Hawthorn clear above Duggan is on the end of a favourable bounce in the centre square and kicks long. The kick is favourable to two West Coast players (not Allen), however, they collide with a Hawthorn player leaving Impey to mop up.
13:15 - the ball bounces inside West Coast's forward 50 inadvertently at the back end of a throw-in. O'Neill gives up the ball in a tackle and Nash runs the ball through the centre for another Lewis goal.
12:02 - the ball comes off the two ruckmen's hands into the West Coast forward 50. The ball is contested for a couple of moments and then is tied up.
11:52 - West reads the tap well from the subsequent ball up but is swamped by Hawthorn midfielders at the top of the 50 and his attempted kick is smothered resulting in a Sicily bomb.
11:30 - Clark kicks from just on 50m near the boundary to the top of the goalsquare. There is a two-on-two (including Waterman and Allen). The ball comes to ground and is hustled over the boundary line next to the point post.
11:05 - Worpel's kick from a clearance bounces on its point outside of West Coast's forward 50 and then bounces high back inside. The ball is contested and a ball-up results. There is a subsequent inside 50 momentarily as Hawthorn clear from the clearance.
10:15 - West marks in space but misses Waterman from about 35m away. Hawthorn clear with handballs.
6:09 - Foley kicks long to a nest of Hawks. Somehow the ball alludes them and falls to Jamieson. This results in the technical rundown by Petruccelle who kicks a behind only.
2:47 - O'Neill kicks along the boundary to Waterman in a two-on-one. The two easily prevail and shuffle the ball over the boundary line for a stoppage.
4th quarter
19:52 - Kelly kicks high from the first bounce down. Sicily forces the ball to the boundary line.
19:37 - Sheed receives the handball outside the clearance and almost kicks an exceptional goal, hitting the post from 50m on the boundary line.
15:02 - Witherden kicks to Allen's slight advantage deep in the forward pocket. Allen draws a crowd and the ball is brought to ground and forced over the boundary line.
4:45 - after a 50m penalty Williams receives a short pass and kicks deep to a large pack. Allen rises but is unable to bring the ball down. Hardwick is at the back of the pack to switch and Hawthorn clear.
2:20 - Petruccelle receives a suprisingly effective handball from Gaff and bursts through West Coast's fifty metre line and is off to the races. Unfortunately, he leaves the ball behind and Impey collects the ground ball enabling Hawthorn to retain possession.
Takeaways
Our game against Hawthorn produced one of the most inept attacking attempts from a "professional" football club that I've ever seen.
We attempted long 50+ metre kicks inside 50 on the majority of occasions with only one singular positive result (Allen's mark and goal in the 2nd quarter).
Further, Allen was barely utilised as a target and I only counted two occasions when he was in a genuine one-on-one (he won one and was beaten once).
Jamieson was the target in a number of instances and only took one mark (uncontested) for the game. He simply was unable to be competitive even against inexperienced players such as Weddle and Blanck, let alone Sicily and Frost.
It is telling that Sicily had the most inside 50s for the game (7) and 5 score involvements to go with his 11 marks and 11 intercept possessions.
It is clear that, like him or hate him, Darling makes a substantial difference to our structure when the opposition have multiple tall defenders (as most clubs do).
Up until very recently Darling has been dependable for us (as far as making it onto the park as well as playing very high percentages of game time). Given Darling's age, injury concerns and form this is simply untenable for us to rely upon in 2023, let alone beyond this year.
Looking at our list Jack Williams is the only other genuine key forward on our list (apart from Allen). He is unproven at WAFL level, let alone the seniors.
It is conceivable (as has been proposed in other threads) that Barrass (or McGovern on return) will play forward.
However, this poses the further issue of key defender stocks. We have them in Edwards and Bazzo, but they're not much to write home about.
In any event a key forward is very much a stop gap if we continue to get extremely low numbers of inside 50s while retaining a propensity to blast the ball indiscriminately. It is almost as if we reverted back to type, taking on our 2022 form today.
There was so little running the ball from transition. We would've entered our inside 50 in this way less than a handful of times.
Obviously long term there are glaring issues, but in the short term we need to work out how we can translate being competitive in the clearances into scoring opportunities. Ultimately I think we've all identified that this is due to our midfield woes. We do not have enough midfielders to win it at the coal face and, when they do, we do not have midfielders who are quick enough with their decision making and execution of skills on the transition to allow us clean exits from stoppages. So while we might win technical clearances it does not have a real effect on the game or generating scoring opportunities.
Still we're in it for the long haul. The possible (?) return of some players may be a band aid over part of our midfield concerns later in the year. I'm not holding out hope.
Should we unfortunately obtain the wooden spoon and the first pick of the draft this midfield issue will improve by selecting Harley Reid who could act as a conduit between our current inside and outside mids. Further, if English becomes available as a free agent he would improve our competitiveness at the clearances (although not comparable to who we've had before) and would help tremendously as a relief marker for the long kicks down the line and during transitions. We probably need to think about diversifying our key forward stocks though. Because if Allen goes down then we're in for a world of hurt beyond what we experienced today. Probably that's who we need to target next week in the mid-season draft.
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No we can't.
No-one can.
The VFL have made it so costly to exceed the soft cap that no club, even the richest, can exceed the cap to any meaningful extent without busting themselves.
It was set up deliberately this way to stop clubs like us using our financial situation to advantage while pauper beggars (yes we know who you are) just cannot.
Edit - listen to Mop. The Mop seems to have a pretty good handle on this.
Edit2 - Mop, handle, it was accidental.
I'd rather hear about your sex life than re-living any of that game again thanks m8
timeforanother22
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But masochism is my sex life.I'd rather hear about your sex life than re-living any of that game again thanks m8
Wight Wolf
Senior List
West Coast are still the biggest club in the AFL.
West Coast still have the best facilities and stadium in the country.
Our injuries are why we are where we are at right now. You will probably find that we scalp a couple teams late this year with returning players.
We are terrible right now but wont be forever , however the coaches must be overhauled. End of season latest.
Simmo, you won a flag well done. Your time is up, you simply cannot inspire players anymore. Thanks for your contributions and we look forward to seeing you in the reunions.
Assistant coach full overhaul. Nothing to break down here.
If we are to secure Harley Reid, we need to show the young man how great this club and W.A is.
West Coast still have the best facilities and stadium in the country.
Our injuries are why we are where we are at right now. You will probably find that we scalp a couple teams late this year with returning players.
We are terrible right now but wont be forever , however the coaches must be overhauled. End of season latest.
Simmo, you won a flag well done. Your time is up, you simply cannot inspire players anymore. Thanks for your contributions and we look forward to seeing you in the reunions.
Assistant coach full overhaul. Nothing to break down here.
If we are to secure Harley Reid, we need to show the young man how great this club and W.A is.
Barrybran
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I have no doubt there is confidence element stemming from the lack of available AFL- level players and agree that heads need to roll. But let's at least get some AFL-level players back and see what the boys can do.
- Jun 14, 2015
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This is the problem from overestimating our list at the end of 2019 which was our last genuine shot. Giving up 4 draft picks set us back and now we have a host of ageing players that cannot get on the park and young players still honing their craft but no experience on the team to help them on game day truly awful.
- Jun 14, 2015
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Agreed in 2010 going to 2011, we had the following on our listScratching my head over how people think we can suddenly just hit the draft and turn this ship around in a year or two??
Oh no, not sure this thing is going to get fixed any time soon. The club is broken on so many levels. Seasons like this year and last year, on top of the end to the 2021 season don't just get forgotten.... the team legit will need to learn to win again.
When we finally start playing competitive footy again, we'll be all at see when it comes to closing out games, or holding onto a lead or stopping momentum etc etc because failure is getting fairly ingrained into the club and our young players at the moment.
We're a good 4-5 away from playing finals again IMO, and add another 3- 5 onto that before we're a contender.
All speculation of course, but nothing about this period is like the 2010 spoon year. They are light years apart. We had genuine A grade talent, a much better list and even then played much more exciting footy.
The Simpson sympathisers and defenders of the club are just making things worse. It's one thing being a "true fan" and "supporting through thick and thin" cheersquad alien etc etc....
But there's really no leg to stand on here. The team stopped playing for the coach after the bye in 2021, simple as that. Since that period we've had loads of injuries, absolutely, but the remaining players still aren't playing for him... and that's damning
a) JK
b) Shuey
c) Gaff (drafted)
d) Darling (drafted)
e) Hurn
f) Lecca
g) Nic Nat
h) Brad Sheppard
i) Matthew Priddis
h) Eric Mackenzie
The above were the core of our premiership team and leadership team for 7 to 8 years, Plus strong experience of Cox, Kerr, Glass and Embely to mentor these young guys to mentor them means we fast tracked the younger guys.
Go check those draft picks we gave up and who was taken with them, then make a case for any of them being any good in our team (hint: one of the first round selections has already been delisted).
Our biggest list management problem is that our best players from 2019 fell off a cliff due to their bodies breaking down. Gaff, Yeo, Shuey, Gov, Nic Nat. No team can draft quick enough to replace their (then late 20s) senior core. Look at Collingwood and Geelong and see how many of their best 22 are in their early 30s and still performing. That's what we're missing.
- Nov 18, 2017
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Great post, spot on. He was jogging after players in the first quarter, I don't think he has attitude problems, I think it's highly more likely that he was severely underdone going into this game and just doesn't currently have the fitness to apply himself and keep up with the game.
Whilst I think there are some small concerns, I'll reserve judgement on this kid until he gets a decent crack with the adequate fitness under his belt.
Completely agree with your point on bargain hunting too.
Positives
Negatives
- Not having a selection of mature leaders to guide the growth and development
I would be looking to bring in that leadership from other clubs now. Unfortunately our boys in shuey, NicNat, yeo, McGov are cooked. Having them continually break down is a step back for the club each year. Love what they have given us but now they have to make a new sacrifice and hang ‘em up
- spending time with family and not worrying or being so emotionally invested in WCE for the next few years
- watching draftees start to shine and develop - hopefully
Negatives
- Not having a selection of mature leaders to guide the growth and development
I would be looking to bring in that leadership from other clubs now. Unfortunately our boys in shuey, NicNat, yeo, McGov are cooked. Having them continually break down is a step back for the club each year. Love what they have given us but now they have to make a new sacrifice and hang ‘em up
Calling it a soft cap is really rather misleading. It's a hard cap, just with fixed fines based on the degree to which you overspend.
Hook461123
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Well that was awful. Made all the more dissapointing by the fact I was actually hoping and expecting a close game.
There's no question now, we are the worst team in the AFL by a mile and as bad as I remember a team being for a long time.
I was happy to see all of Bazzo, Long, Hough, Ginbey and Chesser in the team but everyone of them got smashed and getting floggings like that can't be good for their development.
We looked clumsy and low skilled with team mates getting in each others way. Dropped marks and fumbles, missed tackles and bad decisions.
No leadership and everyone dropped their heads out there.
We're hamstrung with the coaches contract but not with the administration. Time for a change at the top to reset the culture and expectations.
Justin Langer is on the board but I think we need him in the coaches box to get some of that hunger and pride back.
Boys need a lift and some hope that things will get better. Can't do that without some change.
There's no question now, we are the worst team in the AFL by a mile and as bad as I remember a team being for a long time.
I was happy to see all of Bazzo, Long, Hough, Ginbey and Chesser in the team but everyone of them got smashed and getting floggings like that can't be good for their development.
We looked clumsy and low skilled with team mates getting in each others way. Dropped marks and fumbles, missed tackles and bad decisions.
No leadership and everyone dropped their heads out there.
We're hamstrung with the coaches contract but not with the administration. Time for a change at the top to reset the culture and expectations.
Justin Langer is on the board but I think we need him in the coaches box to get some of that hunger and pride back.
Boys need a lift and some hope that things will get better. Can't do that without some change.
Our best ruckman, two best midfielders, three best defenders, and three of our four best forwards. Plus Jones, Culley and SPS who were showing promise, and Cole who at least can play at the level.
Add a bunch of random others whose preparation and development have been massively disjointed by being injured themselves, or having to play half-cooked or out of position.
It's like Melbourne without Gawn, Oliver, Petracca, May, Lever, Petty, Fritsch, Pickett, van Rooyen(struggling to even find 3 good forwards, so imagine their replacements), Spargo, Bowey, Jordon and Hibberd.
TheNewAnchor
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- Oct 19, 2022
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Jesus Christ, how dare you lob into this forum spruiking common sense and level-headedness, we won’t have a bar of it. Sack the coach, S&C team, CEO, trainers, all the volunteers and anyone else that holds the club together. It’s times like these we need our best anarchists lined up with a plan to resurrect this once mighty club. Oh, and f*ck off Suma and Jacko, the bandwagon is already overflowing.
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