List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part I

[The Boar]

Good call on the weed gringo2011
He could be worth a swing.
Should come cheap.
I like it a lot, not someone I had considered.
Didn’t work out in Melbs forwardline, but could be a good foil for Max.

I'd target him or Scache if they could potentially play Key Back.

Take the pressure of scoring goals away and it might do wonders for both.

Wouldn't give up much for either mind you.

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[St Kilda Death]

I reckon if doesn't make it as a forward he could be a Harris Andrews type of slippery tall marking back. It's a pretty low risk one as long as the Dees would let him go. Losing Jackson and potentially Brown in another 12 months could make them play hard ball though.

I think part of why it hasn’t worked at Melbourne is he is either asked to work as the main man, which he is not,
Or in tandem with Tom MacDonald which makes a sloooow forward line.
Their shit came together when they complimented toms brute force with speed from others.
Weed could work better with Max who as everyone has just been saying, is fast and good below his knees.

 

[The_Steadier]

For all this talk about not getting the best out of Max King...

He kicked 50 goals and had over 90 shots on goal

How many current players have done that by the age of 22?

At a guess I would say just Cameron and Buddy?

If he kicks straight he's not far off winning the Coleman

Just because he's such a gun that even with the handbrake of shocking and dysfunctional i50 delivery applied, he still puts up great numbers... doesn't mean we shouldn't worry too much about the handbrake.

His lesser talented brother will win a coleman (in a worse team) before max does if we don't fix our gameplan.

 

[phantom13]

Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Viney, Bowey

I can keep going if you like

I didn’t say don’t go to the draft, you did say you only get talent from the draft.

You know you can get FAs without giving up draft picks right?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Its OK to trade, as long as you get good players ( case in point Jack Steele

9

Jack Steele

Age

29

Ht

187cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.9

5star

K

8.7

3star

HB

12.2

5star

M

3.7

4star

T

6.8

5star

CL

3.6

5star

D

21.3

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

16.8

4star

K

5.0

2star

HB

11.8

5star

M

2.6

3star

T

6.4

5star

CL

3.6

5star

) and not bad players ( case in point Dan Hanneberry ). It seems you can be just as unlucky in trade as you can be in the draft ( and we have a long list of these dating back more than a decade as proof ) so it seems reckless to give away multiple draft picks for trade.

 

[gringo2011]

I didn’t say don’t go to the draft, you did say you only get talent from the draft.

You know you can get FAs without giving up draft picks right?

I'd probably say that at the moment we really need to draft with all our high picks to make up for a gap and the older players we need to bring in are FA or cheapies. Probably should start to look only at guys that have 5 years left. Paddy Ryder was great but he gone and we are no more advanced in our replacement. If he wasn't there perhaps we have given games to Heath or Campbell has held the spot for 22 games and starts next year primed and in synch with the mids. Old guys at the end is probably not where we are at right now.

 

[Atomboy]

What will we get for jack steele, jack sinclair and rowan marshall?

A: the next 15 wooden spoons.



Right in time for marshall, sinclair, steele to be 30 year old b-graders.

How are we any closer to a flag than right now?

A: we are not.
This thinking is how teams get stuck perpetually rebuilding for 20+ years.
(We're 11 years in now and will be 15 years into a rebuild in the timeframe you are looking at.)

The window never opens if you don't actually throw everything at trying to win a flag when the bulk of your list are in their prime years.
The bulk of our list are in their prime now and in the next couple of years.

Unless we completely gut the list (guys like marshall and steele etc included being on the chopping block), then a 3-4 year window is not an option.

You are correct that the bulk of our list is in their primes, unfortunately the bulk of those are B/C graders.

That doesn’t get you into the top 4 and adding 1-2 Free Agents like DeGoey won’t move the dial.

We have been perpetually rebuilding for 10 years now and it clearly hasn’t worked. Might be time for a new direction.

 

[Captain Paddy]

For all this talk about not getting the best out of Max King...

He kicked 50 goals and had over 90 shots on goal

How many current players have done that by the age of 22?

At a guess I would say just Cameron and Buddy?

If he kicks straight he's not far off winning the Coleman

100% agree… but he still also had games where he was getting quad teamed and burnt with some horribly entries.

Let’s not overlook how much better he can be (which is incredibly scary for every other team) because he managed to still get it done despite some serious issues in delivery, game plans and his own kicking

 

[Mangus]

I think part of why it hasn’t worked at Melbourne is he is either asked to work as the main man, which he is not,
Or in tandem with Tom MacDonald which makes a sloooow forward line.
Their s**t came together when they complimented toms brute force with speed from others.
Weed could work better with Max who as everyone has just been saying, is fast and good below his knees.

There is a reason Melb keep dropping Weideman he and Ben Brown are the lowest ranked players for Defending in side F50 in the comp. He is a mark it or nothing player and he doesn't mark it enough. Melbourne can't play both of them because when they do they get killed on the rebound. So maximum they can play one of the two and Brown is better.

I am a big no on Weideman would prefer Hayes in our forward line. He is a competitor in the Tom McDonald/Brody Mihochek mould

No to Gunston too he is too old and we are too far away from a flag, back Sharman to be our Gunston -

Saying all that there is a need for at least another developing tall forward on our list and possibly even a backup mature ager

 

[The_Steadier]

You are correct that the bulk of our list is in their primes, unfortunately the bulk of those are B/C graders.

That doesn’t get you into the top 4 and adding 1-2 Free Agents like DeGoey won’t move the dial.

We have been perpetually rebuilding for 10 years now and it clearly hasn’t worked. Might be time for a new direction.

I agree that the bulk of our (now mature) list has largely been B - C grader level for the last 2 years.

I think under a new coach/gamestyle (one with more system and structure) our current list could be much closer to A-B grader level.
We have a massive list of underperformers.

That's why I think we aren't a total lost cause trying to win a flag with this group in the next 3 years (while sincs, steele marshall are in their prime).

But we are a lost cause with this current group if we don't radically change our style imo.
If the club are making the call that ratts is the guy for the next 2 years- then I think we do need to blow the whole list up and start again with a view of challenging in 3-4 years time. (With max in his prime)

By blowing the list up though- i'm not talking about little easy things like trading billings or ross etc which will only net little compo.

If we are serious about targeting being top 4 in 3-4 years time, then we will only get there by trading out guys who are prime years A grade guns now (eg wilkie, sincs, marshall, steele); for guys who will be A grade guns in 3-4 years time.

Not my preferred path to a flag (i want us to blow up the football dept, not the list), but if the club refuse to consider blowing up the football dept- then that is our best flag shot.

 

[Captain Paddy]

He is actually Stephen Milne in a 7 foot body. Hi ground work is absolutely unbelievable for a key forward.

Imagine if we get someone to plant at full forward and we can get him up the field like Jezza Cameron where he can not only use his height to clunk marks on the wing, but his speed to burn back into the 50.

Name a defender thats his size that will have the speed to chase him up the field

 

[Saintbloke]

Correct.
Wouldn’t argue a great coach was a factor.
But I think putting on 10kg of muscle really helped him, as it will Sharman

I remember him in an interview saying Clarkson changed his approach to playing forward, but yes, Sharman will benefit from more building up his strength.

 

[Sainter1873]

Its OK to trade, as long as you get good players ( case in point Jack Steele ) and not bad players ( case in point Dan Hanneberry ). It seems you can be just as unlucky in trade as you can be in the draft ( and we have a long list of these dating back more than a decade as proof ) so it seems reckless to give away multiple draft picks for trade.

I have no issues trading for the right player but I’d rather we move away from trading for average/slightly above-average players and risky types. FAs are a bit different because they generally don’t cost picks.

I’d prefer to keep our picks most years and really focus on building a solid list. We don’t need to rebuild but if we can string together three more drafts like our 2021 version then we’ll have a very good list in a few years and we’ll be competitive for a decade.

I think that’s the sustainable strategy.

 

[St Kilda Death]

Imagine if we get someone to plant at full forward…

I want
the Weed!








Also Sam Weideman would be a good fit for this role.

 

[falkstar]

Imagine if we get someone to plant at full forward and we can get him up the field like Jezza Cameron where he can not only use his height to clunk marks on the wing, but his speed to burn back into the 50.

Name a defender thats his size that will have the speed to chase him up the field

That’s why he needs to lead more coz even if it’s a shit kick that bounces in front he works well at ground level. What I really want to see more of is him running back toward the goal like we saw maybe once this year. Burning his defender off. The other thing he needs is some defensive work. He moves well and is very agile for ground balls, but when an opponent has the ball he doesn’t move like that to lay a tackle. So a bit Milne like in that regard

 

[gringo2011]

I agree that the bulk of our (now mature) list has largely been B - C grader level for the last 2 years.

I think under a new coach/gamestyle (one with more system and structure) our current list could be much closer to A-B grader level.
We have a massive list of underperformers.

That's why I think we aren't a total lost cause trying to win a flag with this group in the next 3 years (while sincs, steele marshall are in their prime).

But we are a lost cause with this current group if we don't radically change our style imo.
If the club are making the call that ratts is the guy for the next 2 years- then I think we do need to blow the whole list up and start again with a view of challenging in 3-4 years time. (With max in his prime)

By blowing the list up though- i'm not talking about little easy things like trading billings or ross etc which will only net little compo.

If we are serious about targeting being top 4 in 3-4 years time, then we will only get there by trading out guys who are prime years A grade guns now (eg wilkie, sincs, marshall, steele); for guys who will be A grade guns in 3-4 years time.

Not my preferred path to a flag (i want us to blow up the football dept, not the list), but if the club refuse to consider blowing up the football dept- then that is our best flag shot.

You don't trade your best players ever. Especially if you have idiots in charge that wouldn't know talent if it fell on them.

That's called a perpetual mediocrity cycle. Trade out your best, buy up kids who take 5 years to go nowhere, trade the good ones and start again.

Sinclair is elite, King too probably. Crouch, Steele, Marshall and Wilkie are A grade or close enough to it. Gresham started the season playing A grade footy but fell away, same with Snags.

There is a good pool of kids in Owens, Nas, Windy...a good group in partial development in Clark, Coff and Paton etc.

Battle looks to have come on to a high level, Ross back to a high level probably B+, really the playing list should be very competitive but for what ever reason they won't fire. To me it looks like structure and game plan. Skill training is a priority too.

I'd go again with what we have for another year with better coaching and see what we have. If we drop down it's probably rebuild time again and rebuild around a young coach with his list and a quality recruiter.

 

[Mangus]

Imagine if we get someone to plant at full forward and we can get him up the field like Jezza Cameron where he can not only use his height to clunk marks on the wing, but his speed to burn back into the 50.

Name a defender thats his size that will have the speed to chase him up the field

King has some of the attributes to play this role but he doesn't have the work rate or tank to do it yet. His defensive efforts are token only at this stage. Cameron has a Riewoldt like engine he beats his man by running them into the ground up and down the field. He can play like an extra midfielder if need be, Max would just get lost up there. Max is a proper full forward he just needs to convert better.

 

[#gosaintas]

You don't trade your best players ever. Especially if you have idiots in charge that wouldn't know talent if it fell on them.

That's called a perpetual mediocrity cycle. Trade out your best, buy up kids who take 5 years to go nowhere, trade the good ones and start again.

Sinclair is elite, King too probably. Crouch, Steele, Marshall and Wilkie are A grade or close enough to it. Gresham started the season playing A grade footy but fell away, same with Snags.

There is a good pool of kids in Owens, Nas, Windy...a good group in partial development in Clark, Coff and Paton etc.

Battle looks to have come on to a high level, Ross back to a high level probably B+, really the playing list should be very competitive but for what ever reason they won't fire. To me it looks like structure and game plan. Skill training is a priority too.

I'd go again with what we have for another year with better coaching and see what we have. If we drop down it's probably rebuild time again and rebuild around a young coach with his list and a quality recruiter.

training defs is part of the problem. They actually train to kick it on King's head...it's just bizarre

 

[The_Steadier]

You don't trade your best players ever. Especially if you have idiots in charge that wouldn't know talent if it fell on them.

That's called a perpetual mediocrity cycle. Trade out your best, buy up kids who take 5 years to go nowhere, trade the good ones and start again.

Sinclair is elite, King too probably. Crouch, Steele, Marshall and Wilkie are A grade or close enough to it. Gresham started the season playing A grade footy but fell away, same with Snags.

There is a good pool of kids in Owens, Nas, Windy...a good group in partial development in Clark, Coff and Paton etc.

Battle looks to have come on to a high level, Ross back to a high level probably B+, really the playing list should be very competitive but for what ever reason they won't fire. To me it looks like structure and game plan. Skill training is a priority too.

I'd go again with what we have for another year with better coaching and see what we have. If we drop down it's probably rebuild time again and rebuild around a young coach with his list and a quality recruiter.

Agree like I said- it's not my preferred- I want to keep the list intact and make radical changes to our footy dept and coaching.

But IF the club refuse to consider that- and we have ratts and some minor tweaking of his style locked in for the next 2 years... then what do you think we should do with the list?

 

[phantom13]

I'd probably say that at the moment we really need to draft with all our high picks to make up for a gap and the older players we need to bring in are FA or cheapies. Probably should start to look only at guys that have 5 years left. Paddy Ryder was great but he gone and we are no more advanced in our replacement. If he wasn't there perhaps we have given games to Heath or Campbell has held the spot for 22 games and starts next year primed and in synch with the mids. Old guys at the end is probably not where we are at right now.

I completely agree with this but the original statement was about how teams get quality from the draft only. That’s just not the case. If we could get DeGoey right now we’d be mad not to.

 

[gringo2011]

Agree like I said- it's not my preferred- I want to keep the list intact and make radical changes to our footy dept and coaching.

But IF the club refuse to consider that- and we have ratts and some minor tweaking of his style locked in for the next 2 years... then what do you think we should do with the list?

Ratts will be gone mid way through next year if he flops early. Best case is we miss any chance of finals and move him out by about round 17, give the new guy a few games before attacking 2024.

If he doesn't make radical changes to the way we play and start getting wins he'll need a miracle to hold his job.

Rath has to take 50% of the blame too. He's the guy brought in as a strategist and nothing about the way we play looks up to scratch. The game style seems to be the opposite to what suits our list, the game style is horrible to sit through as a spectacle, it looks dated and not actually improving our wins.

I honestly can't see one improvement he's made. If Clarko comes calling I'd let him walk.

 

[phantom13]

I think our forward line a shambles is a myth.
We have smart kids there.

Most of the problem is the lack of transition speed leaves us with a flooded forward arc.

Then when in that position, which is at times unavoidable, we could really use a bigger body up there.
Not only as a 2nd contested marking target, but able to block for max.

Butler, Higgins etc try as they might to block for him, they just aren’t a threat to guys like the Mccartin boys.

I think its both.

Watching the leading patterns of the forwards when you are there is tough. Max doesnt have a great workrate or craft. Higgins does but he also is a bad size and average field kick to be a hit up. Between that and the slow ball movement were awful to watch at times.

 

[George]

I am the boss, I need to put on my managers hat and crack the whip.

Punish me, Daddy

 

[phantom13]

I'd target him or Scache if they could potentially play Key Back.

Take the pressure of scoring goals away and it might do wonders for both.

Wouldn't give up much for either mind you.

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Schache is a tall wingman that hates a contest... Do not want

 

[gringo2011]

I completely agree with this but the original statement was about how teams get quality from the draft only. That’s just not the case. If we could get DeGoey right now we’d be mad not to.

That's true, you add quality picking up existing players but generally your star class players are drafted. Very few top end players change clubs unless they come with issues or luck falls in your lap.

Most sides have drafted their absolute top liners. Tom Mitchell would have been the only player in the top 50 of the Brownlow count to have started at another club. Actually I think Lyons polled well too.