List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part I

[lewdogs]

Ratts will be gone mid way through next year if he flops early. Best case is we miss any chance of finals and move him out by about round 17, give the new guy a few games before attacking 2024.

If he doesn't make radical changes to the way we play and start getting wins he'll need a miracle to hold his job.

Rath has to take 50% of the blame too. He's the guy brought in as a strategist and nothing about the way we play looks up to scratch. The game style seems to be the opposite to what suits our list, the game style is horrible to sit through as a spectacle, it looks dated and not actually improving our wins.

I honestly can't see one improvement he's made. If Clarko comes calling I'd let him walk.

And worse case scenario is we win the flag and are stuck with him?

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Ratts will be gone mid way through next year if he flops early. Best case is we miss any chance of finals and move him out by about round 17, give the new guy a few games before attacking 2024.

If he doesn't make radical changes to the way we play and start getting wins he'll need a miracle to hold his job.

Rath has to take 50% of the blame too. He's the guy brought in as a strategist and nothing about the way we play looks up to scratch. The game style seems to be the opposite to what suits our list, the game style is horrible to sit through as a spectacle, it looks dated and not actually improving our wins.

I honestly can't see one improvement he's made. If Clarko comes calling I'd let him walk.

I wonder if the overlap time with Choey contributed to the coaching issues?
Ratts was always brought in to put Cho on notice.
I’d give Harves a crack next year when Ratts gets rolled but please don’t bring him in as an assistant.

 

[gringo2011]

Schache is a tall wingman that hates a contest... Do not want

He's another Mason Wood. Can be a weapon when not camped in a spot but they are hard to use well and there is only so many you can carry.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Sorry gotta go. Haircut appointment.

 

[phantom13]

That's true, you add quality picking up existing players but generally your star class players are drafted. Very few top end players change clubs unless they come with issues or luck falls in your lap.

Most sides have drafted their absolute top liners. Tom Mitchell would have been the only player in the top 50 of the Brownlow count to have started at another club. Actually I think Lyons polled well too.

I think FA is becoming more common TBH and more top liners change clubs. I listed a few out but I strongly suspect more and more will do it.

 

[gringo2011]

And worse case scenario is we win the flag and are stuck with him?

Well that would be preferred but he looks closer to getting the sack from here. He's got to spend his summer watching how successful sporting clubs set up and try to get creative. If he wants to keep his job he's got more work to do that the players even.

He should ask for a senior experienced assistant that has recent experience in strategy. It's not his forte which is fine but he needs some help badly. He looks lost for answers. He's meant to be a good delegator.

 

[ScrappyDo]

You don't trade your best players ever. Especially if you have idiots in charge that wouldn't know talent if it fell on them.

That's called a perpetual mediocrity cycle. Trade out your best, buy up kids who take 5 years to go nowhere, trade the good ones and start again.

Sinclair is elite, King too probably. Crouch, Steele, Marshall and Wilkie are A grade or close enough to it. Gresham started the season playing A grade footy but fell away, same with Snags.

There is a good pool of kids in Owens, Nas, Windy...a good group in partial development in Clark, Coff and Paton etc.

Battle looks to have come on to a high level, Ross back to a high level probably B+, really the playing list should be very competitive but for what ever reason they won't fire. To me it looks like structure and game plan. Skill training is a priority too.

I'd go again with what we have for another year with better coaching and see what we have. If we drop down it's probably rebuild time again and rebuild around a young coach with his list and a quality recruiter.

Thing is, if they do get JDG then we're all in for the term of his contract, 4 years. There'll be no going back.
After that Sincs will be 32-33, Jordy, Steel, Doogs and Ro 30-31. If we draft hard now then there's a chance the team in 2-3 years is proper good when King hits his prime. But that would not be the time to start another rebuild.

 

[gringo2011]

I wonder if the overlap time with Choey contributed to the coaching issues?
Ratts was always brought in to put Cho on notice.
I’d give Harves a crack next year when Ratts gets rolled but please don’t bring him in as an assistant.

Harves would make a good strategist coming straight out of the Mitchell Hawks. Sam has the Hawks playing up to date fast footy and he would have seen what Bucks did wrong.

 

[phantom13]

Well that would be preferred but he looks closer to getting the sack from here. He's got to spend his summer watching how successful sporting clubs set up and try to get creative. If he wants to keep his job he's got more work to do that the players even.

He should ask for a senior experienced assistant that has recent experience in strategy. It's not his forte which is fine but he needs some help badly. He looks lost for answers. He's meant to be a good delegator.

Most coaches now are more like team managers. Ratts appears to have a foot in each camp and thus isnt doing either thing well.

 

[gringo2011]

Thing is, if they do get JDG then we're all in for the term of his contract, 4 years. There'll be no going back.
After that Sincs will be 32-33, Jordy, Steel, Doogs and Ro 30-31. If we draft hard now then there's a chance the team in 2-3 years is proper good when King hits his prime. But that would not be the time to start another rebuild.

Which was why I was begging them not to top up when we should have been drafting. Lethlean made the cake upside down.

 

[Premium]

You are correct that the bulk of our list is in their primes, unfortunately the bulk of those are B/C graders.

That doesn’t get you into the top 4 and adding 1-2 Free Agents like DeGoey won’t move the dial.

We have been perpetually rebuilding for 10 years now and it clearly hasn’t worked. Might be time for a new direction.

Most of the guys in there prime are a bit better than B or C graders

Steele
Marshall
Sinclair
Crouch
Wilkie
Membery
Hill
Butler
Gresham
Billings
Ross

and with guys like King , Sharman , Higgins , Windhager , Owens , Milera , Clark , Battle , Paton , Coffield coming through a DeGoey type would certainly move us in a upward direction knowing how close we were to making finals.

We now have a list that is ever improving and the youth we have in the side now could have huge upside and if that happens watch out.

 

[phantom13]

Not sure why people would think our best 22 with a couple of decent free agents (DeGoey and Amon probably the only ones left) wouldnt challenge a top 4 run with the comp as open as it is. On paper were pretty solid and DeGoey becomes X Factor (plus frees up other mids and forwards).

The biggest thing is the way we play, not the cattle.

 

[phantom13]

Ironically Collingwoods 22 looks pretty ****ing average but they finished 4th. Line our best against their best on paper and id back ours every day of the week.

Unfortunately they play fast, attractive, attacking footy and we dont. Hence they beat us head to head and on the ladder.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Like Windy, King, Owens, Battle, Sinclair?

If you wanna discuss how many players we’ve brought in that’s fine but we’ve done what every other club has done and the concept that you only get quality through the draft is stupid.

Can you can pop my quote up where I said that,

cheers, thanks.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Which was why I was begging them not to top up when we should have been drafting. Lethlean made the cake upside down.

Replay that trade period without Hill and I think we'd be pretty golden. It's still very fixable but they need another coach if we're being serious. I hope they hire a replacement for him this year. Go get Yze, McQualter, and Luke Hodge in some capacity. Ditch Lade and Roughey, then Ratts at the bye.

 

[Dupree73]

I said most over 26. As of today, that list comprises of these 15:

1 Ryder, Patrick
2 Geary, Jarryn
3 Hannebery, Daniel
Campbell, Tom
Ross, Sebastian
Webster, Jimmy
4 Hill, Bradley
Wood, Mason RA
Crouch, Brad
5 Kent, Dean
Membrey, Tim
Lienert, Jarrod
Sinclair, Jack
6 Jones, Zak
7 Billings, Jack

"Most" of 15 would indicate eight players. I've labelled seven. Not bad off the top of my head. But you know, that seems outrageous to you and 15 spoons coming up!

Add Webster and Lienert to that group and your clearing space for some opportunity for Highmore, Coffield, Connoly etc. Not to mention the cap space as well. My estimate would be around 3.5 million with the players numbered and those other two right there. I get if you think you can contend to load up on cheap reliable journeymen/ second chances to fill in the gaps due to injury but we ain't that anymore. We should be clearing the list of these guys and giving the list a freshen up via the draft and some savvy identification of some young talent starved of opportunity at clubs with A graders in their positions. I'd rather hang on to and give game time to Bytel, Burnes, Sharman, Connoly etc and see if thay develop in the Sinclair manner than give games to these C grade, happy to still be on a list somewhere players. If the spin is these guys are good clubmen and model citizens then get a Like Hodge type instead that doesn't have the mental hang ups and energy of a just hanging in there, never quite good enough list clogger and get your culture right with your assistants. All that said I do like Campbell on the list and playing with the kids. He has cracked in all year at reserve level and provides a level of protection/physicallity that the list really lacks.

 

[phantom13]

Can you can pop my quote up where I said that,

cheers, thanks.

You werent the original post i responded to champ. This is a branch of that convo.

 

[George]

Harves would make a good strategist coming straight out of the Mitchell Hawks. Sam has the Hawks playing up to date fast footy and he would have seen what Bucks did wrong.

I always worry about bringing our own across. Every coach eventually gets sacked and so I don't know if it would tarnish his club reputation a bit if it went **** up. I doubt it would but wouldn't want us risking it.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Because i would rather put time into someone who is going to be around for 5-10 years not two years , we have gone down this path before and how did that turn out

This!

 

[Remboy]

Most of the guys in there prime are a bit better than B or C graders

Steele
Marshall
Sinclair
Crouch
Wilkie
Membery
Hill
Butler
Gresham
Billings
Ross

and with guys like King , Sharman , Higgins , Windhager , Owens , Milera , Clark , Battle , Paton , Coffield coming through a DeGoey type would certainly move us in a upward direction knowing how close we were to making finals.

We now have a list that is ever improving and the youth we have in the side now could have huge upside and if that happens watch out.

Good point. I think the number one goal has to be getting the most out of the players we've got. How many of our players have played to their full potential this year? Not too many.
They've got to find a way to get the players we've got to perform. You can't expect outsides to come in and make us a premiership side.

 

[St Kilda Death]

I think its both.

Watching the leading patterns of the forwards when you are there is tough. Max doesnt have a great workrate or craft. Higgins does but he also is a bad size and average field kick to be a hit up. Between that and the slow ball movement were awful to watch at times.

Think that’s harsh on King.
Maybe he can build his tank more for more output…
But I was behind the goals last 2 games and he was puttin a lot of work to try and get get separation on mccartin and andrews.
A lot of the time he could just use a good block and guys like Higgins and butler work hard to help him but don’t cut it strength wise.

****en help if an ump ever blew a whistle on oppo defenders manhandling him.

 

[puppy_dog7]

Griffin Logue

19

Griffin Logue

Age

26

Ht

193cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.0

3star

MG

115.4

2star

D

9.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

5.4

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.0

2star

MG

115.4

2star

D

9.8

3star

K

4.4

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.0

3star

MG

115.4

2star

, Hayden McLean

2

Hayden Mclean

Age

25

Ht

197cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.1

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

4.0

5star

G

0.4

3star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.3

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

10.0

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.6

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

4.4

5star

G

0.2

3star

, JDG and a young up and coming mid. get it done

 

[St Kilda Death]

Not sure why people would think our best 22 with a couple of decent free agents (DeGoey and Amon probably the only ones left) wouldnt challenge a top 4 run with the comp as open as it is. On paper were pretty solid and DeGoey becomes X Factor (plus frees up other mids and forwards).

The biggest thing is the way we play, not the cattle.

Agree with the first paragraph, and our best 22 will be good.

Still think our cattle was outclassed on Sunday.
We worked hard and won the ball, defended well. They just had classier ball movement.
We were missing a few best 22 but need to build depth with good ball users.

 

[gringo2011]

Most coaches now are more like team managers. Ratts appears to have a foot in each camp and thus isnt doing either thing well.

And if he's not really the strategist because of Rath and the line coaches doing that we need to change them.

Not sure why people would think our best 22 with a couple of decent free agents (DeGoey and Amon probably the only ones left) wouldnt challenge a top 4 run with the comp as open as it is. On paper were pretty solid and DeGoey becomes X Factor (plus frees up other mids and forwards).

The biggest thing is the way we play, not the cattle.

Definitely. A quick ball movement simple game plan, and we look like a team that should have been between 4th and 8th. The real issue is that there isn't much in behind coming through. We are going to need to have an over performance from the developing players we do have because we don't have many and need to keep adding kids.

The danger then becomes are we a North Melbourne under Scott that peaks around 4th. I think we have to go for it still because the option of cutting hard and rebooting would be a pretty hard to sell carrying a substantial debt post Covid. We really need to just make ourselves competitive and hope for a miracle.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Thats where we differ - I don't care the age of the forward if they can take attention off King, help him develop and be a threat themselves. The forward line looked best when Marshall played alongside King. And with Marshall moving into the ruck, I don't think the other options have shown enough to go into next year without trying to add someone better into the mix.

We'll have Hayes. He's a big body who'll take attention away from King whilst Sharman also develops.
Definite no to Gunston from me.
We need to be developing our own players now unless its someone too good to refuse in an age demographic we need,