Preview Changes: Round 12 v St Kilda

[Bicks]

Hartigan was far from our worst and one of our improvers this year. I've been a critic in the past but he deserves some credit.

Tonight he was fair. Very tough the way the ball was coming in with zero midfield pressure. Conceded a couple over the back when he committed to the marking contest, but it's hard to criticise him for that.

Did he win a one on one contest at all tonight, he was awful.

Edit :

If he wasn't our worst he was certainly in that race with 4 or 5 others.

 

[Pea Nut]

Hartigan was far from our worst and one of our improvers this year. I've been a critic in the past but he deserves some credit.

Tonight he was fair. Very tough the way the ball was coming in with zero midfield pressure. Conceded a couple over the back when he committed to the marking contest, but it's hard to criticise him for that.

Are you watching replays of games from 2016 ?? Hartigan has struggled this year so far. Was good/very good last year and showed a lot of improvement throughout the year, but has regressed in several areas this year in my opinion.

 

[Big Crow]

Are you watching replays of games from 2016 ?? Hartigan has struggled this year so far. Was good/very good last year and showed a lot of improvement throughout the year, but has regressed in several areas this year in my opinion.

Happy to disagree. I'll be taking a closer look at him over the next few games. All I know is I've been a critic in the past and have found myself less annoyed by him this year.

 

[feenix67]

It's about time we drew some lines through players. I think it was Malthouse who rated players based on their performance in big games. I think it's a very valid measure, and most of our squad have a big enough body of work in big games to be rated.

Definite outs:

D Mackay
R Douglas
B Smith
R Atkins
A Otten

On the cusp

B Crouch
K Hartigan
J Jenkins
C Cameron

Need to lift

T Walker
D Talia
T Lynch
S Jacobs
R Laird
J Kelly

Too early to call

H Greenwood
W Milera

Safe for now

E Betts
M.Crouch
R Sloane
L Brown
J Lever

So I would make 5 changes. Replacing the top group with Knight, Gallucci, Wigg, Menzel, Beech.

The next men up should be Doedee, Keath, Poholke, Hampton* Gov* and Seedsman*, with O'Brien pressuring Sauce.

Smith and Atkins should be traded at season's end, Douglas and Mackay delisted or permanent SANFL if contracts dictate. Andy should retire.

 

[Shaz2012]

Its not a matter of picking different guys from the squad. You could have made any of the combination of changes suggested on this thread for the geelong game. The result would have been the same. Do we have the right cattle? Probably not. Do we have the right mix of coaches. Definitely not.

We have to wake up to the fact that we will not win the flag this year. Best we can hope for is that the club brings in some mongrel into the coaches box at the end of the season and some A grade mongrel into the squad. Forget about silky players like Kelly or Fyfe. We need Rockliff.

 

[SES SA]

Otten - Menzel (If healthy) or Beech
MacKay - Knight
Atkins - Gallucci
Smith (if you really want to send a message) - Wigg/Doedee

 

[Elite Crow]

As much as I want Menzel to succeed, he isn't the answer to replace who goes missing as he does it himself.

And here is the thing, I've come up with a revolutionary idea. When Smith is being shut down at half back, how about moving him? Has this ever happened once?

 

[Elite Crow]

Last week Atkins gets 37 touches and this week he gets SFA. There's a dilemma.

He is extremely soft.

 

[pjcrows]

As much as I want Menzel to succeed, he isn't the answer to replace who goes missing as he does it himself.

And here is the thing, I've come up with a revolutionary idea. When Smith is being shut down at half back, how about moving him? Has this ever happened once?

I agree with feenix that Brodie Smith, based on output, is not good enough. He's bordering on Hamish Hartlett territory to be honest.

I also agree with the second part of your post here though - the structure and gamestyle that we play doesn't allow for certain players to get the ball when they're not being given it. I see Smith, Laird and Atkins as examples. In our coaches' eyes the system is paramount, regardless of what the players want to do or what their football instinct might tell them. Neil Craig never really trusted his players to use their own judgment - it was system-based. Lyon is very similar.

Leigh Mathews has always said that when it comes to the crunch, the footballers on the field need to make up their own mind about when to go and when to not. They can't throw team rules out the window but they need to be trusted to make up their own mind. I feel that our players can't, or won't, change the onfield momentum of a game if it goes against "structure".

This ultimately comes back to coaching and planning - can we blame Smith, Laird and Atkins for getting low numbers when the structure, in this type of game, doesn't allow them to? It doesn't excuse lack of tackling pressure etc but Pyke made no structural effort whatsoever to release Smith or Laird off half back. "Trust the system". The mind boggles.

 

[King Elvis]

Why oh why would anyone be calling for Kelly to be an out. If only more players gave a shit like he does.

Love his attitude and approach - but I don't know if he's good enough.

Are you watching replays of games from 2016 ?? Hartigan has struggled this year so far. Was good/very good last year and showed a lot of improvement throughout the year, but has regressed in several areas this year in my opinion.

The games Hartigan has been shit in, are the games where our midfield have been non competitive.

He's a good player, but all bar the elite defenders tend to get flogged when their midfield is so pathetic.

 

[FR0GGY]

Love his attitude and approach - but I don't know if he's good enough.

Agree, so let's start with players who don't tick any of those boxes, which brings us back to dmack.
Then get rid of the soft ones.

 

[Vhaluus]

Last week Atkins gets 37 touches and this week he gets SFA. There's a dilemma.

Atkins got very few of those touches in the early part of the game where we actually won.

I swear he got about 20 touches in the last quarter.

His game last week was highly, highly overrated.

 

[whitey_1975]

Love his attitude and approach - but I don't know if he's good enough.



The games Hartigan has been shit in, are the games where our midfield have been non competitive.

He's a good player, but all bar the elite defenders tend to get flogged when their midfield is so pathetic.

Re Kelly. I get where your coming from, he diesnt look skilled or refined. He knows his disposal limitations and doesnt stray from the solid option. But if a few more players had his desire, application and never say die attitude we would be a far better side in games where it counts. For me he is a superior defender to Hartigan. Hands down. I would persist with Kelly, bring in Keath and Doodee, creative players with excellent disposal, and Kelly can then do what he does, reliably shut down his opponent.

 

[King Elvis]

Agree, so let's start with players who don't tick any of those boxes, which brings us back to dmack.
Then get rid of the soft ones.

When it comes to players who should be dropped, it's not an either/or situation - we can drop them all

structural changes - these guys bust their arses, but just don't work/fit how our side should be;
Otten; said all season he's a good stop gap if we lose a tall, but shouldn't be in the side when the others are - too tall, too slow; and it's clearly hurting us.
Kelly; love his intent, but we have too many defenders in our backline, not enough creative/rebounding attacking players - I like him, but we can't play him (compounded by how shit Mackay is).

We effectively play two midfielders short because of the above - which is why we get opened up through the middle so easily; a lack of pressure and gaping holes in our defensive zone.

Players who just aren't any good;
Mackay. Been obvious for years. Compounds our structural problems - we're a couple of midfielders short already; we can't afford one of the mids we do have to be so totally irrelevant and ineffective. Just get rid of him.
Camporeale is ****ing hopeless too.

Front runners;
Smith.
Atkins.
These two are the worst - drop Smith, make a statement and see if it makes both of them pull their heads out of their arses, if it doesn't, trade them at season end.

Senior players who coast, should be dropped when possible;
Douglas - he's become a nothing player; no hurt factor in his game at all.
Jacobs - stats padder; I don't give a **** how many hit outs you get, if none of them are to advantage.

I'd almost put Lynch in this category; he doesn't coast, but he plays selfish football at times, and his disposal goes to shit.

Limited players - alright in specific roles, but heavily reliant on the rest of the team actually competing. Don't deserve to be dropped, but we need to acknowledge the reality;
Brown
Hartigan



Tex doesn't appear to be mentally in the game at present - whether he's injured or not, I don't know, but he's not playing with any intent or arrogance at present, and we desperately need that back. Did not impose himself in the game at all last night - why didn't he roll into the middle or off the HBF at any stage; force himself into the game?

I'd get a sports psychologist/hypnotist into the Club - we are mentally fragile, every other side knows it, and we need to fix it.

If Tex isn't fully fit, I would've told him to flatten people last night; not punch on, but just crunch anyone possible - if he crossed the line and got a suspension, good; set the tone of actually playing with some ****ing aggression. We all take the piss out of Charlie Dixon, but at least he's been hurting opposition players.

So for me, outs are;

Otten - structural.
Kelly - structural.
Mackay - shit.
Smith - wake up call; no more down hill skiing.
Jacobs.

On notice;
Douglas - start having an impact, or this is your last year.
Atkins - dropping Smith is his wake up call; if he doesn't respond, he's out.

If Tex is injured, then rest him.

Get the sports psych in, get Richie McCaw in as a consultant to teach the guys (and the coaches) about sacrifice, team first and having some balls when the pressure comes.

We are on track for another promising year that'll end in dismal failure - it is obvious to everyone; if we don't make some serious moves now, it's another wasted season.

 

[King Elvis]

Our problems, and the way to address them, are so ****ing obvious, yet we don't fix them year after year.

It's insanity.

 

[baldandbroke]

Brodie Smith should be on the wing.

Otten is backup, that has benefited from our "don't change the team" mantra. Back to the SANFL you go mate.

Douglas is done, we have players ready to take his spot in the SANFL.

Milera needs to find form. He has been woeful in the contest. Woeful.

And of course ... Mackay. Enough has been said about this total anti-footballer on BF to fill a few volumes. He is a negative in nearly every way.

We have:

St Kilda (h) -> BYE -> Hawks (h) -> Carlton (a)

SURELY this is a run where we can see what those pushing for selection have to offer?

Because after that we have:

Bulldogs (h) -> Melbourne (a) -> Geelong (h) -> Collingwood (a) -> Port (h)

If we don't have our sh!t at least semi-sorted by the Bulldogs game, we could go the way of North last year VERY VERY quickly.

 

[whitey_1975]

When it comes to players who should be dropped, it's not an either/or situation - we can drop them all

structural changes - these guys bust their arses, but just don't work/fit how our side should be;
Otten; said all season he's a good stop gap if we lose a tall, but shouldn't be in the side when the others are - too tall, too slow; and it's clearly hurting us.
Kelly; love his intent, but we have too many defenders in our backline, not enough creative/rebounding attacking players - I like him, but we can't play him (compounded by how shit Mackay is).

We effectively play two midfielders short because of the above - which is why we get opened up through the middle so easily; a lack of pressure and gaping holes in our defensive zone.

Players who just aren't any good;
Mackay. Been obvious for years. Compounds our structural problems - we're a couple of midfielders short already; we can't afford one of the mids we do have to be so totally irrelevant and ineffective. Just get rid of him.
Camporeale is ******* hopeless too.

Front runners;
Smith.
Atkins.
These two are the worst - drop Smith, make a statement and see if it makes both of them pull their heads out of their arses, if it doesn't, trade them at season end.

Senior players who coast, should be dropped when possible;
Douglas - he's become a nothing player; no hurt factor in his game at all.
Jacobs - stats padder; I don't give a **** how many hit outs you get, if none of them are to advantage.

I'd almost put Lynch in this category; he doesn't coast, but he plays selfish football at times, and his disposal goes to shit.

Limited players - alright in specific roles, but heavily reliant on the rest of the team actually competing. Don't deserve to be dropped, but we need to acknowledge the reality;
Brown
Hartigan



Tex doesn't appear to be mentally in the game at present - whether he's injured or not, I don't know, but he's not playing with any intent or arrogance at present, and we desperately need that back. Did not impose himself in the game at all last night - why didn't he roll into the middle or off the HBF at any stage; force himself into the game?

I'd get a sports psychologist/hypnotist into the Club - we are mentally fragile, every other side knows it, and we need to fix it.

If Tex isn't fully fit, I would've told him to flatten people last night; not punch on, but just crunch anyone possible - if he crossed the line and got a suspension, good; set the tone of actually playing with some ******* aggression. We all take the piss out of Charlie Dixon, but at least he's been hurting opposition players.

So for me, outs are;

Otten - structural.
Kelly - structural.
Mackay - shit.
Smith - wake up call; no more down hill skiing.
Jacobs.

On notice;
Douglas - start having an impact, or this is your last year.
Atkins - dropping Smith is his wake up call; if he doesn't respond, he's out.

If Tex is injured, then rest him.

Get the sports psych in, get Richie McCaw in as a consultant to teach the guys (and the coaches) about sacrifice, team first and having some balls when the pressure comes.

We are on track for another promising year that'll end in dismal failure - it is obvious to everyone; if we don't make some serious moves now, it's another wasted season.

Totally agree with your sentiment. I would do it a little differently, but your points are nothing but completely right. See you next year when nothings changed

 

[TexForPM]

Out Otten Mackay Jacobs
In beech, doedee, Rob

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Yep Douglas is entering into real Mackay territory now.

Doing nothing constructive, fumbling everything, managing to never be the very worst player but never playing any good.

Mackay...Douglas...Walker...Jacobs (for his pussy style as a ruckman)...Talia: Our senior players are an indictment on us.

 

[Crow_Magnon]

Otten and Mackay out...and probably Lever unfortunately. Knight, Gallucci and Doedee in. We'll need more runners against the Saints coming off the bye!

 

[TheLeftFist8]

I mentioned last week that ROB is a different ruck to Jacobs...but he is better suited to our teams needs right now.

There is no doubt that ROB will be worse at getting first hands on the tap in the centre bounce (maybe he hasn't learnt the 'jump a second early' technique) BUT he can:

- hit the contest hard
- contest at ground level
- display an aggressive mindset
- mark the ball
- clean hands in the contest (not fumble a hundred times then miss the handball).

I'm sure we can do without Sauce's tap outs to no advantage (even if it's not all his fault), cheap dinky stats and dropped marks.

I want some MONGREL back in this soft outfit and Jacobs is one of the least aggressive ruckmen I've ever seen.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Otten and Mackay out...and probably Lever unfortunately. Knight, Gallucci and Doedee in. We'll need more runners against the Saints coming off the bye!

We are a huge chance of losing this match.

St Kilda run hard and contest the ball hard...yeah they are AFL basics but that's what will beat us cos we don't.

Can only hope the humiliation of last night will sting the selectors then players into action but we know they will close ranks and cuddle each other.

 

[kiwicrow]

Out: Camporeale S
In: Fresh Air and Hope

 

[MRB37]

Also, one more change.

Can we finally stop the shit where we have 3-4 defenders jump up to spoil the ball and leave NO ONE at ground level to grab the ball or tackle the opposition.

Tell Hartigan, if Lever and Talia in the contest STAY DOWN. You've got some decent speed, you need to attack the ground ball.

 

[MRB37]

We are a huge chance of losing this match.

St Kilda run hard and contest the ball hard...yeah they are AFL basics but that's what will beat us cos we don't.

Can only hope the humiliation of last night will sting the selectors then players into action but we know they will close ranks and cuddle each other.

Yea. I got told "I'd hate to be St Kilda next week" and said "that's what everyone said about Melbourne too".