Review Dees v Richmond: the Good, Bad, Fugly and very Fugly

[demondavey]

No Cannon82 was spot on, culture is directly related to ladder position.

So it is relevant?

 

[Topkent]

So it is relevant?

Nah because if we win the next 6 the culture will be awesome again apparently.

It's just a guess.

 

[HANDSOLO]

Nah because if we win the next 6 the culture will be awesome again apparently.

It's just a guess.

But what about that camp we camcelled

Definitely somehow responsible

 

[Tempy Tiger]

I think the group misses Watts and Bernie. Jones looks like a miserable prick, Lewis likewise. TMAC is a bit of an automaton too. If your spending most of your waking hours st a club it needs to be a fun place to come too. Seems like it’s anything but. I know this has got a lot to do with being 1-5 but I’d be interested to hear from anyone with inside mail as to how the vibe has changed in the playing group.

 

[Topkent]

I think the group misses Watts and Bernie. Jones looks like a miserable prick, Lewis likewise. TMAC is a bit of an automaton too. If your spending most of your waking hours st a club it needs to be a fun place to come too. Seems like it’s anything but. I know this has got a lot to do with being 1-5 but I’d be interested to hear from anyone with inside mail as to how the vibe has changed in the playing group.

Watts was gone last year aswell. Clutching at straws I reckon

 

[demondavey]

Nah because if we win the next 6 the culture will be awesome again apparently.

It's just a guess.

The culture is not an issue is my point. It was an issue previously. But now it’s ok. It’s on field and game plan issues plaguing us now.

 

[Djcjdees]

If your spending most of your waking hours st a club it needs to be a fun place to come too

I think half the list being injured or hospitalised post Christmas and not being able to train/gain full fitness before the actual season started, then playing underdone probably contributes to the place being not that fun. Also losing as a result of the terrible state of the list wouldn't help.

The season is a write off in terms of finals/flags. Best thing to do now is pick the fittest players in as close to their preferred positions as possible, regardless of who it is (Petty/Gillies/Morton/Newton/Bate/Clisby/Garlett/Blease/Tapscott/Cook/King/Valenti don't care.

We might find out that we have a couple of guns up our sleeves like Hore - he's been a great find, though it was pretty obvious he wouldn't be out of place.

Send everyone else with any sort of recurring injury to get it properly looked at and treated, without the pressure of rushing them back in. There's nothing to rush back in for now.

No chance of this happening of course. Viney will be back in before his shoulder has heeled (sic) guaranteed.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

I think half the list being injured or hospitalised post Christmas and not being able to train/gain full fitness before the actual season started, then playing underdone probably contributes to the place being not that fun. Also losing as a result of the terrible state of the list wouldn't help.

The season is a write off in terms of finals/flags. Best thing to do now is pick the fittest players in as close to their preferred positions as possible, regardless of who it is (Petty/Gillies/Morton/Newton/Bate/Clisby/Garlett/Blease/Tapscott/Cook/King/Valenti don't care.

We might find out that we have a couple of guns up our sleeves like Hore - he's been a great find, though it was pretty obvious he wouldn't be out of place.

Send everyone else with any sort of recurring injury to get it properly looked at and treated, without the pressure of rushing them back in. There's nothing to rush back in for now.

No chance of this happening of course. Viney will be back in before his shoulder has heeled (sic) guaranteed.

Would love an Alex Keath.

 

[Proper Gander]

I’ve worked in many different organisations over the years, and culture is what I would describe as the following from my personal experience particularly in managerial roles;

An underlying set of values, beliefs, behaviours and thought processes that underpin an organisation from an intangible perspective. Culture is driven at an executive or senior management level.

The way the MFC conducted themselves post 2006 was culture based. Collective senior figures concluded that tanking and acquisition of draft selections would promote a successful environment whilst moving on key senior players and ‘rebuilding’ the club.

All this did was set a status quo of a loser mentality so much so that Brock McLean openly bemoaned the club and its practices for it. It was blatantly obvious that the club was fractured during the back end of the Bailey era and then totally split apart with Neeld.

Anyone that thinks that culture isn’t an identifiable intangible structure within an organisation that impacts behaviours really isn’t too sure how critical it is. It isn’t made up by people on footy forums, it’s real and impactful.

I am not saying NOW we have a bad culture, but up until 2013 and the end of Neeld we did. We have structural and on field issues, but we did have a really bad workplace environment for a good 7 years that’s only now seen us come out of the mire. Now we have to work our our on field concerns re personnel and game plan.

I have no problem with your views. I agree essentially with your definition of culture as being underlining set of values etc.

I’m not sure why you are directing this at me though. My post was responding to Tulip about this board demonstrating poor culture, or a veil of negativity or whatever, because of people posting about sacking the captain or dropping this or that player etc.

My only point at all was to say that random shit posted on this board has exactly nothing to do with any actual or perceived ‘cultural’ issues with our club.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

I have no problem with your views. I agree essentially with your definition of culture as being underlining set of values etc.

I’m not sure why you are directing this at me though. My post was responding to Tulip about this board demonstrating poor culture, or a veil of negativity or whatever, because of people posting about sacking the captain or dropping this or that player etc.

My only point at all was to say that random **** posted on this board has exactly nothing to do with any actual or perceived ‘cultural’ issues with our club.

wtf

 

[Crusty Demon]

The culture point is an interesting one. Hard to tell from an outside perspective, however it's been quite noticeable the players aren't as cohesive this season. I mean Round 1 when Gawny was getting smashed, not one player stuck up for him. There has been other incidents throughout the season as well which has been eyebrow raising. We just don't seem to be supporting one another on the field. We looked like a playing group playing for one another last year, hunting in packs together, bullying the opposition, sticking up for team mates. This season that has definitely dropped away. I know club culture is more than just on field attitude and behaviours, however it should be an extension of the whole club approach to culture and this season it hasn't been there.

 

[Tulip]

Proper Gander - to elaborate on my earlier point.

As soon as we lost the first couple of games, the reaction across the board on here, on social media, at games (and I've been to all five losses) wasn't what you'd see at clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong. When those clubs have bad starts, it's generally "this is ****ing terrible, sort it out Clarko" rather than "I'VE SUPPORTED THIS RABBLE SINCE 1712 AND I'M ****ING SICK OF ITTTTTTTTTTTTT". I read a post today on the MFC Facebook page saying "we've never beaten Hawthorn, even when we were good, so why should I ****ing bother coming now we're shit". We beat them eight games ago in front of 90k you peanut, and convincingly too! Roos' veil of negativity wasn't just aimed at the players, it was aimed at the fans who spend all their time bemoaning this club.

Obviously having a coach that could articulate why we were losing games and how we would fix it helped. The current one just says ~fundamentals~ and ~connections~ over and over and offers nothing else, which we all despise, but I don't believe for a second that playing for a club whose fans openly mock a player based on innuendo that their agent has asked for a lot of money - to the point that player deletes all their social media - is conducive to a healthy club. Having players fearing making mistakes because of the howls from the crowd when they make them is not healthy. A guy like Weideman has nothing to do with the #fistedforever era, but there's absolutely no way he was allowed to have a bad start to the year (as young players do) after precociously dominating the finals. Oh no, we'll bronx cheer him in the third game of the season.

I'm not blaming us as a supporter base, because we have scars that more successful clubs don't have, but the fact that the reaction on here to an unbelievably bad start to the year has been to set the joint on fire is telling. It wasn't that long ago we were saying "I just want to be competitive", then "I just want a few wins to make footy enjoyable", then "I just want to go into most games with a chance of winning", then "I just want to make finals once", then "I just want to win one final", all the way through the euphoria of last September, the pre-season and that first half against Richmond in the JLT when we looked like footy was the easiest game in the world. That momentum has taken five weeks to collapse back into "**** THIS ****ING CLUB HAS BEEN ****ING SHIT MY WHOLE LIFE".

Of course, shit all went downhill when we hired Gary Pert. And I don't like him. So I'm happy to blame him too and see what happens.

 

[demondavey]

I have no problem with your views. I agree essentially with your definition of culture as being underlining set of values etc.

I’m not sure why you are directing this at me though. My post was responding to Tulip about this board demonstrating poor culture, or a veil of negativity or whatever, because of people posting about sacking the captain or dropping this or that player etc.

My only point at all was to say that random **** posted on this board has exactly nothing to do with any actual or perceived ‘cultural’ issues with our club.

I agree that random comments here don’t reflect what is really happening within the 4 walls of the club, but my personal opinion due to what we saw from the MFC during the bad years was representative of shit culture.

 

[Topkent]

I agree that random comments here don’t reflect what is really happening within the 4 walls of the club, but my personal opinion due to what we saw from the MFC during the bad years was representative of **** culture.

Whats shit culture? Is it bad administation? Bad coaches? Bad players?

Culture is hands down the biggest wank term ever. There are winners and losers.
Collingwood under Buckley were shit for 5 years. Culcha
Collingwood are now awesome under Bucks. Culcha

Same could be said for Hardwick, Simpson etc.

Bevo wins the flag, Culcha.
Bevo misses finals a few years. Culcha

 

[demondavey]

Whats **** culture? Is it bad administation? Bad coaches? Bad players?

Culture is hands down the biggest wank term ever. There are winners and losers.
Collingwood under Buckley were **** for 5 years. Culcha
Collingwood are now awesome under Bucks. Culcha

Same could be said for Hardwick, Simpson etc.

Bevo wins the flag, Culcha.
Bevo misses finals a few years. Culcha

It’s become a wank term because it’s a go to AFL buzzword. People throw it around without understanding what it is. It’s the same as ‘process’ and ‘system’ etc.

I’ve just explained what it is in my post above. I wouldn’t say Collingwood or Richmond had bad culture at all during the down periods, but I’d argue along with Carlton, we did. A perfect example of facilitating a bad culture, aka, poor standards, is tanking FFS. Brock McLean gave an insight into it.

People use the term without understanding the term, that’s why it’s become a buzzword; used so much that it’s just become footy lingo.

 

[Djcjdees]

I'm not blaming us as a supporter base, because we have scars that more successful clubs don't have, but the fact that the reaction on here to an unbelievably bad start to the year has been to set the joint on fire is telling. It wasn't that long ago we were saying "I just want to be competitive", then "I just want a few wins to make footy enjoyable", then "I just want to go into most games with a chance of winning", then "I just want to make finals once", then "I just want to win one final", all the way through the euphoria of last September, the pre-season and that first half against Richmond in the JLT when we looked like footy was the easiest game in the world. That momentum has taken five weeks to collapse back into "**** THIS ******* CLUB HAS BEEN ******* **** MY WHOLE LIFE".

Yep, that's the downside of being a side that has reached the promised land of mid table mediocrity. With a hint of success comes a deluge of expectations.

I think both sides of the argument are right, but it is chicken and egg. Win a flag and most of this probably goes away. Win a few in a few years like Hawthorn and no one really has anything to complain about, historical scars or not.

Have one half decent season and then:

• Presenting the side for round one in the state it was after sending half the squad for surgery in the offseason
• Forcing an injured player who had just found some form in to stay out in a practice match
• Replacing your star, once-believed-the-saviour-of the-club forward with a defender for a high pick who arrived in poor condition, got suspended in a practice match ruling him out of round one then proceeding to (probably because of the condition he was in) get injured for '2-weeks' (a month now and and he's at least 3 weeks away, probably 4) in addition to an injured HBF who has also barely played and we don't know when if ever he will return
• Not replacing your forward with a forward and instead relying on a very injury prone defender to have another out-of-the-box season up forward with a young albeit talented key forward who had previously played a total of 3 decent games for the club (and who we've now pretty predictably dropped)
• Allowing Viney and Jones to start the season clearly hampered with injuries after having 2 qtrs of a preseason with Casey
• The whole injury management farce that is going on.
• Clearly not having any answer to opposition clubs having worked out how to beat us (ie there's no plan B)

I'd say members of the club are kinda within their rights to fall back into the dark old ways of the VoN. The above just reeks of the farce of a club we were (still are?) during the decade of deepression. It's reminiscent of the Lent Calendar of Farce or whatever it was called.

Comparing us to Geelong/Hawthorn as a fan base is unfair on all parties. Apples and oranges. We're University compared to them. The Hawks won 4 flags in a row in a time we didn't win 4 games in a row. In terms of a club, they are a league better than us, and their fans act accordingly.

Making a prelim (and getting embarrassed in it because we lost games we should have won at home thus forcing us to travel to Perth to play it) doesn't expunge a decade (at least) of some of the most embarrassing, inept, incompetent, farcical and diabolical running of a club in the history of the game. So the reactions from people are kinda understandable. The only way that will stop is with stuff like the above becoming a thing of the past.

 

[Topkent]

Yep, that's the downside of being a side that has reached the promised land of mid table mediocrity. With a hint of success comes a deluge of expectations.

I think both sides of the argument are right, but it is chicken and egg. Win a flag and most of this probably goes away. Win a few in a few years like Hawthorn and no one really has anything to complain about, historical scars or not.

Have one half decent season and then:

• Presenting the side for round one in the state it was after sending half the squad for surgery in the offseason
• Forcing an injured player who had just found some form in to stay out in a practice match
• Replacing your star, once-believed-the-saviour-of the-club forward with a defender for a high pick who arrived in poor condition, got suspended in a practice match ruling him out of round one then proceeding to (probably because of the condition he was in) get injured for '2-weeks' (a month now and and he's at least 3 weeks away, probably 4) in addition to an injured HBF who has also barely played and we don't know when if ever he will return
• Not replacing your forward with a forward and instead relying on a very injury prone defender to have another out-of-the-box season up forward with a young albeit talented key forward who had previously played a total of 3 decent games for the club (and who we've now pretty predictably dropped)
• Allowing Viney and Jones to start the season clearly hampered with injuries after having 2 qtrs of a preseason with Casey
• The whole injury management farce that is going on.
• Clearly not having any answer to opposition clubs having worked out how to beat us (ie there's no plan B)

I'd say members of the club are kinda within their rights to fall back into the dark old ways of the VoN. The above just reeks of the farce of a club we were (still are?) during the decade of deepression. It's reminiscent of the Lent Calendar of Farce or whatever it was called.

Comparing us to Geelong/Hawthorn as a fan base is unfair on all parties. Apples and oranges. We're University compared to them. The Hawks won 4 flags in a row in a time we didn't win 4 games in a row. In terms of a club, they are a league better than us, and their fans act accordingly.

Making a prelim (and getting embarrassed in it because we lost games we should have won at home thus forcing us to travel to Perth to play it) doesn't expunge a decade (at least) of some of the most embarrassing, inept, incompetent, farcical and diabolical running of a club in the history of the game. So the reactions from people are kinda understandable. The only way that will stop is with stuff like the above becoming a thing of the past.

**** you write some horseshit. How was Hogan a star and saviour outperformed by an 'injury prone defender' last season then?

You campaigners who just pretend McDonald flukes a season to help an argument give me the shits, it's like you can't even remember that McDonald went forward because he was struggling as a defender

 

[Djcjdees]

**** you write some *********. How was Hogan a star and saviour outperformed by an 'injury prone defender' last season then?

You campaigners who just pretend McDonald flukes a season to help an argument give me the shits, it's like you can't even remember that McDonald went forward because he was struggling as a defender

Settle down.

He was thought of as a star, that's pretty much beyond question I'd have thought.

If you don't think TMac is injury prone then I'm not really sure what else to say. He had a great season up forward, no doubt. I'm sure you had absolutely no doubts that it would be a great long term solution though ey? He was forevermore going to kick 50 goals a season.

I'm able to say he fluked it because I was saying it all through last year when it was happening, and now it's been proven right hasn't it? How's he gone this year? His turning circle is wider than Neitz's (ie he's injured) and he's barely done anything aside from going down back again despite us having no key forwards.

You picked half a point out of my post, by the way. Take that one out and the post remains equally as valid. Just settle down a bit.

 

[Topkent]

Settle down.

He was thought of as a star, that's pretty much beyond question I'd have thought.

If you don't think TMac is injury prone then I'm not really sure what else to say. He had a great season up forward, no doubt. I'm sure you had absolutely no doubts that it would be a great long term solution though ey? He was forevermore going to kick 50 goals a season.

I'm able to say he fluked it because I was saying it all through last year when it was happening, and now it's been proven right hasn't it? How's he gone this year? His turning circle is wider than Neitz's (ie he's injured) and he's barely done anything aside from going down back again despite us having no key forwards.

You picked half a point out of my post, by the way. Take that one out and the post remains equally as valid. Just settle down a bit.

Nah because you are contradicting yourself, is McDonald shit all along like you predicted or is he injured?

So all last year when he was kicking goals you were predicting he would be injured the next season thus proving he wasn't any good?

Or were you predicting it in 2017 when he went forward and kicked 19 in 9 including 5 in our first win again WC in Perth in like 15 years?

Also no not injury prone. That statement was horeshit. Missed one game in the 4 season before last year as opposed to the non injury prone Hogan who missed 42 games in his 5 seasons with us

 

[Djcjdees]

you were predicting he would be injured the next season

Basically, yeah.

He missed the first 8 weeks of the season with an injury in his foot (I think?). I was always worried about when it would flair up again and it clearly did. That's why I was so adamant that we should have been trying to replace Hogan with a forward, because it left TMac (who I thought was both injury prone and disbelieving that he could possibly have another season up forward as good as this one again) and Weid (who I think we can all agree was still pretty raw) up forward. Then no one. So as soon as TMac inevitably goes down with injury, we're left with Weid up there, who has played a handful of decent games in his career so far. Not knocking him, he's young, but leaving it all to him and TMas was extremely risky. As it turns out, Weid has provided pretty much 0 this year up forward too, which really isn't all that surprising is it?

I'm not knocking TMac either. I've never called him 'shit', in either position he's played. I just never thought he was a long term solution to the forward line and think he is much more naturally a defender. He is injury-prone these days though, no doubt. He's provided absolutely nothing up forward so far this season, and was actually half decent when he was asked to go down back again on one of the better forwards in the league I thought.

 

[Topkent]

Basically, yeah.

He missed the first 8 weeks of the season with an injury in his foot (I think?). I was always worried about when it would flair up again and it clearly did. That's why I was so adamant that we should have been trying to replace Hogan with a forward, because it left TMac (who I thought was both injury prone and disbelieving that he could possibly have another season up forward as good as this one again) and Weid (who I think we can all agree was still pretty raw) up forward. Then no one. So as soon as TMac inevitably goes down with injury, we're left with Weid up there, who has played a handful of decent games in his career so far. Not knocking him, he's young, but leaving it all to him and TMas was extremely risky. As it turns out, Weid has provided pretty much 0 this year up forward too, which really isn't all that surprising is it?

I'm not knocking TMac either. I've never called him '****', in either position he's played. I just never thought he was a long term solution to the forward line and think he is much more naturally a defender. He is injury-prone these days though, no doubt. He's provided absolutely nothing up forward so far this season, and was actually half decent when he was asked to go down back again on one of the better forwards in the league I thought.

Also no not injury prone. That statement was horseshit. Missed one game in the 4 season before last year as opposed to the non injury prone Hogan who missed 42 games in his 5 seasons with us

 

[Topkent]

So Hogan misses 42 games in 5 seasons = No comment

Tmac misses 9 games in 5 seasons = cooked

 

[Djcjdees]

Also no not injury prone. That statement was *********. Missed one game in the 4 season before last year as opposed to the non injury prone Hogan who missed 42 games in his 5 seasons with us

He wasn't injury prone before he started being injury prone..

 

[Djcjdees]

So Hogan misses 42 games in 5 seasons = No comment

Tmac misses 9 games in 5 seasons = cooked

Hogan was also injury-prone.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Literally never said Tmac was cooked. You don't think he's playing hampered by his injury at the moment? Clearly at his peak ey?

 

[Topkent]

. As it turns out, Weid has provided pretty much 0 this year up forward too, which really isn't all that surprising is it?

Bloody oath it is or were you also 'predicting' the other 90% of our side being shit aswell.
Weid has hardly been that much worse than the majority of our side.

Literally with your powers of prediction you should have seen Omac being shit this year and realised we needed another key defender