Autopsy Round 14, 2024 : Hawks skin Tigers

[KermitJagger]

On high tackles, a player is entitled to try to evade a tackle. That includes going low. If you are Watson that means very low.

Look, I love the Hawks as much as anyone but Watson had no intention of trying to evade a tackle in this situation. He was looking for the tackle.

The frees are all well and good if you can get them, but if you get a reputation for doing this sort of play you are always a hairs breadth from losing the most important thing you've got with the umpires - the benefit of the doubt. As we've seen with Ginnivan, it's borderline impossible to get that back.

As a supporter I want him to be as impactful as possible, if he looks for frees like this and stops getting them he loses that impact. He's skillful and agile enough to get around the opponent so that should be his first option, not dropping and expecting frees.

 

[threesixpio]

Some of Sicily's kicks tonight were ridiculous, but Newk was playing with a different ball all game, clean hands, no fumbles and picked good options.

One of my favourite kicks all night was actually Day’s to Chol in the pocket. It was champagne footy

 

[threesixpio]

Look, I love the Hawks as much as anyone but Watson had no intention of trying to evade a tackle in this situation. He was looking for the tackle.

The frees are all well and good if you can get them, but if you get a reputation for doing this sort of play you are always a hairs breadth from losing the most important thing you've got with the umpires - the benefit of the doubt. As we've seen with Ginnivan, it's borderline impossible to get that back.

As a supporter I want him to be as impactful as possible, if he looks for frees like this and stops getting them he loses that impact. He's skillful and agile enough to get around the opponent so that should be his first option, not dropping and expecting frees.

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I agree and our game style is based on pressure ie “I’m going to get out of this situation and still win out”. It’s more intimidating to do it this way and as a supporter I love it way more than Duckwood plays

 

[DogDaySonny]

In defence of the people with concerns around CJ taking contact, I would not agree, but note that there were similar concerns about Hartung & Hill. Seems to me a misunderstanding of the role of the winger. I was a bit concerned about CJ competing in packs where we had adequate cover, in the first half, as it removes an exit option that commences the attacking transition; I was hoping he was told not to do it.

For those who are not convinced that this is the reason for the criticism, I would suggest that you consider initiating a competing site. We could call it BigotFooty. , so we know who's who.

Heh. The ONLY reason someone would disagree with your opinion is bigotry. Why do we do this to ourselves? It’s so stupid.

I actually think criticism of CJ is overzealous nitpicking, but that’s what 50% of the content is here. Just ignore it.

 

[Sixpence]

Look, I love the Hawks as much as anyone but Watson had no intention of trying to evade a tackle in this situation. He was looking for the tackle.

The frees are all well and good if you can get them, but if you get a reputation for doing this sort of play you are always a hairs breadth from losing the most important thing you've got with the umpires - the benefit of the doubt. As we've seen with Ginnivan, it's borderline impossible to get that back.

As a supporter I want him to be as impactful as possible, if he looks for frees like this and stops getting them he loses that impact. He's skillful and agile enough to get around the opponent so that should be his first option, not dropping and expecting frees.

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Actually, I think that shows he is trying to evade the tackle. Ball in left hand, body angled to Vlas' right, Vlas' body also angled right. Wiz has gone to Vlas' left, so has tried to get past but has been caught. Wiz's body already low, he just hasn't stood back upright and has no obligation to. The elbow out accentuates it, but that's not really the worst action as again, he has no obligation to keep it in tight.

I'd agree with you if he threw his legs out into a superman pose, like Selwood or old mate from the Giants last week, or dropped at the knees like Weightman does, but he has done neither.

 

[KermitJagger]

I agree and our game style is based on pressure ie “I’m going to get out of this situation and still win out”. It’s more intimidating to do it this way and as a supporter I love it way more than Duckwood plays

One thing I always appreciated about O'Meara when he played for us was that his instinct was never to let himself get taken out of the contest by looking for free kicks, or putting extra mustard on it when they were there. He may not have reached the heights he could have if he wasn't injured, but I'll always respect what he was as a player and as a clubhouse leader. I don't think Jai gets where he does if he didn't have O'Meara to follow around.

 

[Slainte]

Look, I love the Hawks as much as anyone but Watson had no intention of trying to evade a tackle in this situation. He was looking for the tackle.

The frees are all well and good if you can get them, but if you get a reputation for doing this sort of play you are always a hairs breadth from losing the most important thing you've got with the umpires - the benefit of the doubt. As we've seen with Ginnivan, it's borderline impossible to get that back.

As a supporter I want him to be as impactful as possible, if he looks for frees like this and stops getting them he loses that impact. He's skillful and agile enough to get around the opponent so that should be his first option, not dropping and expecting frees.

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Tough call KJ. He had the boundary behind him and was corralled by two Richmond players. What did you want him to do? "You got me boys, which of you wants the ball". Going low was the sensible option and it was up to the tackler to go low with him. Watch how Nash tackles - he follows the ball carrier down, which is why he hardly ever gets pinged for a high tackle. Putting one arm over the players shoulder is not an option.

 

[KermitJagger]

Actually, I think that shows he is trying to evade the tackle. Ball in left hand, body angled to Vlas' right, Vlas' body also angled right. Wiz has gone to Vlas' left, so has tried to get past but has been caught. Wiz's body already low, he just hasn't stood back upright and has no obligation to. The elbow out accentuates it, but that's not really the worst action as again, he has no obligation to keep it in tight.

I'd agree with you if he threw his legs out into a superman pose, like Selwood or old mate from the Giants last week, or dropped at the knees like Weightman does, but he has done neither.

Oh c'mon. I didn't want to post the clip because I thought the screenshots showed enough.

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[KermitJagger]

Tough call KJ. He had the boundary behind him and was corralled by two Richmond players. What did you want him to do? "You got me boys, which of you wants the ball". Going low was the sensible option and it was up to the tackler to go low with him. Watch how Nash tackles - he follows the ball carrier down, which is why he hardly ever gets pinged for a high tackle. Putting one arm over the players shoulder is not an option.

He had Breust over the top, he could have turned back towards goal, outside towards the 50 metre arc. He could have done anything besides lower himself into the tackle in the fashion that he did.

Once again, my point being that if he keeps doing this and then gets a reputation for it he will stop getting them and that counts for the ones that are genuinely there. This is a post Selwood league, no one is getting grandfathered in with an excuse to keep lowering themselves. At some stage they'll stop coming and the instinct to look for those frees is going to be hard to break.

 

[Sixpence]

Oh c'mon. I didn't want to post the clip because I thought the screenshots showed enough.

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I'm not sure that shows any more to validate your point. He doesn't exactly have a huge amount of time to evade as you wished him to.

 

[hawkman]

Oh c'mon. I didn't want to post the clip because I thought the screenshots showed enough.

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Just an awful tackle of a shorter player for me. Watson doesn't really duck just leans into Vlastuin and the poor tackle does the rest. If Watson drops his shoulders it is only by a couple of centimetres

 

[KermitJagger]

I'm not sure that shows any more to validate your point. He doesn't exactly have a huge amount of time to evade as you wished him to.

You see what you want to see then.

Just an awful tackle of a shorter player for me. Watson doesn't really duck just leans into Vlastuin and the poor tackle does the rest. If Watson drops his shoulders it is only by a couple of centimetres

Are we genuinely watching the same footage? He's almost at a 45 degree angle ffs.

 

[Sixpence]

You see what you want to see then.

Are we genuinely watching the same footage? He's almost at a 45 degree angle ffs.

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So the high contact was made before even lifting his elbow. Hasn't ducked his head, hasn't dropped the knees.

I don't know what your problem with this is? It's a high free every day. So what that his body is at 45 degrees, there's no requirement for him to be perfectly upright!

 

[KermitJagger]

So the high contact was made before even lifting his elbow. Hasn't ducked his head, hasn't dropped the knees.

I don't know what your problem with this is? It's a high free every day. So what that his body is at 45 degrees, there's no requirement for him to be perfectly upright!

Because the officiation was clarified in 2022 that depending on whether it was considered ducking or dropping it should either be considered prior opportunity and holding the ball, or play on.

If this happened against Hawthorn would you be happy? Be honest with yourself.

 

[cryptor]

Oh c'mon. I didn't want to post the clip because I thought the screenshots showed enough.

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Pretty clear to me. He gets the ball in a low position and sees two Richmond defenders closing in on him in the pocket. Leans into the tackle from his lowered position, essentially guaranteeing that initial contact will be made high.

Unlike Selwood and sometimes Ginnivan, he didn't duck his head or raise his arm, but 100% looked for and found the high contact.

Personally, I think this is a fair enough challenge of the defenders ability to lay a legal tackle. But I also think it's a crutch tactic that is well below his talent level. I'd prefer in this situation that he used his elite agility and goal sense to feint and side step the two defenders before snapping the miracle goal. Chances are they'd end up infringing him in an attempt to stop him anyway.

 

[Sixpence]

Because the officiation was clarified in 2022 that depending on whether it was considered ducking or dropping it should either be considered prior opportunity and holding the ball, or play on.

If this happened against Hawthorn would you be happy? Be honest with yourself.

Again, he has neither ducked nor dropped at the knees. You can't pay it because he lowered his body slightly, how can you ever expect the ump to get it right in that case?

I don't like any frees paid against Hawthorn, but yes, I'd be fine with the validity of this one being paid against us.

 

[hawkman]

You see what you want to see then.

Are we genuinely watching the same footage? He's almost at a 45 degree angle ffs.

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This is where he gathers the ball, he is already low

He shifts the ball to his other hand which drops his shoulder a little bit


Then moves to get around Vlastuin


And is taken as he is in his first step

Looking at the stills I am more convinced it is just a terrible tackle attempt. Vlastuin has to get lower to tackle him legally

 

[KermitJagger]

Pretty clear to me. He gets the ball in a low position and sees two Richmond defenders closing in on him in the pocket. Leans into the tackle from his lowered position, essentially guaranteeing that initial contact will be made high.

Unlike Selwood and sometimes Ginnivan, he didn't duck his head or raise his arm, but 100% looked for and found the high contact.

Personally, I think this is a fair enough challenge of the defenders ability to lay a legal tackle. But I also think it's a crutch tactic that is well below his talent level. I'd prefer in this situation that he used his elite agility and goal sense to feint and side step the two defenders before snapping the miracle goal. Chances are they'd end up infringing him in an attempt to stop him anyway.

This is the table given by the AFL back in 2022:



I agree with the last point. Way below his talent level, shouldn't be his instinct. At some point he'll be challenged for the action and we'll revisit this like with Ginnivan and then he won't get a high free (deserved or not) for 12 months.

 

[KermitJagger]

This is where he gathers the ball, he is already lowView attachment 2022231

He shifts the ball to his other hand which drops his shoulder a little bit
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Then moves to get around Vlastuin

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And if taken as he is taken his first step View attachment 2022238

Look at the stills I am more convinced it is just a terrible tackle attempt

It's not worth the argument but I simply don't agree that he's moving to get around Vlastuin there. I don't think you can claim that he's moving to get around a player when he makes no movement in any direction besides the direction of Vlastuin himself.

 

[CD Xbow]

You see what you want to see then.

Are we genuinely watching the same footage? He's almost at a 45 degree angle ffs.

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Gee, KJ, I see around the neck.

 

[Sixpence]

It's not worth the argument but I simply don't agree that he's moving to get around Vlastuin there. I don't think you can claim that he's moving to get around a player when he makes no movement in any direction besides the direction of Vlastuin himself.

I don't think you can claim he has ducked or even lowered his body. His height remains the same in all the stills hawkman has posted above.

 

[KermitJagger]

I don't think you can claim he has ducked or even lowered his body. His height remains the same in all the stills hawkman has posted above.

Because he's picked specific stills? I agree, when you cut out most of the frames it looks like he hasn't lowered his body at all. Great insight.

 

[Sixpence]

Because he's picked specific stills? I agree, when you cut out most of the frames it looks like he hasn't lowered his body at all. Great insight.

Right, so you think he's stood up and dropped back down in between the frames? Sure, ok.

 

[Mr Lizard]

amounts to about the same as timing your marking attempt to get a front on contact.

little player, times his movement to receive high tackle.

he did do the arm lift maneuver but it did no lifting in this case.

 

[hawkman]

I don't think you can claim he has ducked or even lowered his body. His height remains the same in all the stills hawkman has posted above.

His left shoulder definitely drops but that is going to happen naturally when you move the ball from once side to the other and then he does lean in as he is about to move but again it is a natural movement and hardly excessive. If you watch his feet he has taken a half step while Vlastuin has taken 2 to close his space

It is a poor tackle attempt