Autopsy AFL 2024 Round 19 - Blues v North Sun July 21st 4:40pm AEST (Marvel)

[Chism]

How many games did Carlton win in 2018 again? For the WHOLE year?

You bringing up a discussion from 6 years ago?

Yeah we sucked then and no Carlton supporter will argue otherwise. Hence we know what it is like to be at the wrong end of the ladder for extended periods of time. We also didnt have the luxury of numerous handouts and the best coach in the league being gift wrapped for us either. One could seriously argue our coaching appointments in the last 2 decades have been nothing short of disastrous for us.

Jury is still out on Voss IMO even though we made a prelim last season and were 5 goals up on the Lions early in that game. Rest is history but i am not convinced at all.

 

[Jebus]

In no world is that HTB. Even with the tighter interpretation

What the hell are you watching? He literally picks it up, takes 3 steps and fails on the kick because he was tackled. It's text book definition of holding the ball. Incredible that anyone could honestly see it otherwise. Surely you're trolling?

 

[Outtatym]

In no world is that HTB. Even with the tighter interpretation. If that had been called against North for the Blues, this place would be in even more meltdown.
Picks up the ball and is immediately tackled as he's kicking. Play on every day of the week.

Respectfully disagree.
Can't just drop the footy, it isn't knocked out in the tackle, has time to kick the footy but doesnt.

 

[carlton_99]

What the hell are you watching? He literally picks it up, takes 3 steps and fails on the kick because he was tackled. It's text book definition of holding the ball. Incredible that anyone could honestly see it otherwise. Surely you're trolling?

He picks it up and makes an attempt to kick it immediately - how much faster can he try kick it? If that is considered sufficient prior opportunity we would have 86 free kicks a game for HTB

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

So what do you call Kennedy getting tackled and dropping it?

Plays for Carlton and it’s in North’s F50, so play on.

The funny thing it wasn’t the worst decision of the day. Jesse Motlop wins that award for the free in front of goal when no one makes contact with you.

Check my comment 4 posts above. Simply not HTB under any interpretation of the rule. They very occasionally call it as such, but when they do, everyone calls it a howler and it is when they do.
What was the Motlop one? Quarter? Time? Don't remember anything.

 

[King Hansen]

We also didnt have the luxury of numerous handouts and the best coach in the league being gift wrapped for us either.

Are you not actually a Carlton supporter, too young or just an idiot? You got Pick 1 (start of draft) priority picks for Murphy and Matthew Kreuzer. Pick 2 for Andrew Walker, end of first round for Shaun Hampson. And would have got pick 2 in 2002 if you didn't cheat the salary cap.

We got what ended up being 5 picks in the 20s and 40s....

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

Kennedy picks it up and immediately goes to kick it - how much faster can he possibly make an attempt? The change in interpretation has not even been around prior opportunity - it is about the "make a genuine attempt" part of the rule.

Prior opportunity is being "balanced and steady". Kennedy picks it up takes 3 steps and is perfectly positioned to kick the ball. If he makes the slightest contact with his foot it is play on, but if he does not it is HTB every day of the week.

Edit: just to add that prior opportunity is not about how quickly you attempt to dispose of the ball, it is about how quickly you are tackled. If Kennedy was tackled prior to taking a couple of steps it would have been play on.

 

[King Hansen]

LOL at Carlton fans thinking they didn't get the "luxury of numerous handouts"

Been living under a rock for 25 years?

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

This is an over-simplification, the issue is what is considered "prior" is different in 2024 than it was in 2023, which in itself is different to what it was 5 years ago.

The only real difference is that if you have an arm free with no prior and don't make a genuine attempt. Other than that, it's basically the same. They're just a bit quicker in some circumstances to blow the whistle.

 

[carlton_99]

Prior opportunity is being "balanced and steady". Kennedy picks it up takes 3 steps and is perfectly positioned to kick the ball. If he makes the slightest contact with his foot it is play on, but if he does not it is HTB every day of the week.

To me it looks like he bends over to pick it up and goes to kick it immediately. That is not HTB imo now or under any previous interpretation of HTB. Like I said in another post if that is sufficient prior then you will have 80+ HTB free kicks per game.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

How many games did Carlton win in 2018 again? For the WHOLE year?

It was 6 years ago. Can we stick to the gameday topics?
That goes for Blues posters and neutrals.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

To me it looks like he bends over to pick it up and goes to kick it immediately. That is not HTB imo now or under any previous interpretation of HTB. Like I said in another post if that is sufficient prior then you will have 80+ HTB free kicks per game.

Prior Opportunity: a designation to a Player in Possession of the Football who:
(a) is balanced and steady; or
(b) attempts to evade or fend an opponent; or
(c) has taken a Mark or been awarded a Free Kick; or
(d) has driven their head into a stationary or near stationary opponent

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

To me it looks like he bends over to pick it up and goes to kick it immediately. That is not HTB imo now or under any previous interpretation of HTB. Like I said in another post if that is sufficient prior then you will have 80+ HTB free kicks per game.

I agree that it previously was not HTB, but it has probably been 5 or more years since those days. In situations like that it is called HTB 99% of the time currently.

 

[Jebus]

He picks it up and makes an attempt to kick it immediately

You can't be serious surely? Curtis isn't even in the frame when he picks the ball up... He had an eternity to get rid of it in many ways, but he chose to attempt a perfect drop which takes time. He got lucky on the call, but I'm more shocked that there are supporters out there that think it was the correct call. Amazing.

 

[carlton_99]

I agree that it previously was not HTB, but it has probably been 5 or more years since those days. In situations like that it is called HTB 99% of the time currently.

But again the interpretation change wasn't about prior opportunity - it was about there being more emphasis on "making a genuine attempt". That is why we have seen a rise of the one-handed tackle again because once you do that it's almost always HTB now - because it is very difficult to make an attempt with one hand (i.e, the one against Walsh in the 1st).

This for me is prior opportunity - he tries to evade the tackle which is his prior gone at that point. He does make an attempt but that is no sufficient if you have prior - it must be a correct disposal and it looks like an air swing. This wasn't paid HTB.



Another one here with sufficient time to dispose of the football - this is prior. And looks like he throws it as well.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

What the hell are you watching? He literally picks it up, takes 3 steps and fails on the kick because he was tackled. It's text book definition of holding the ball. Incredible that anyone could honestly see it otherwise. Surely you're trolling?

Watch this replay (not the best quality) at 0.25 speed. Once he picks it up, he takes 1 step and goes straight into his kicking motion. That is very, very rarely called HTB and when it is, it's called a howler by all and sundry.
It's a textbook play on with no prior and a genuine attempt.
It should be noted that Ralphy hates Carlton too. He's front and centre any time there's a chance to get a Carlton player suspended.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

But again the interpretation change wasn't about prior opportunity - it was about there being more emphasis on "making a genuine attempt". That is why we have seen a rise of the one-handed tackle again because once you do that it's almost always HTB now - because it is very difficult to make an attempt with one hand (i.e, the one against Walsh in the 1st).

This for me is prior opportunity - he tries to evade the tackle which is his prior gone at that point. He does make an attempt but that is no sufficient if you have prior - it must be a correct disposal and it looks like an air swing. This wasn't paid HTB.



Another one here with sufficient time to dispose of the football - this is prior. And looks like he throws it as well.

Yes, they are both HTB, but what has happened there is the umpire has not realised that the attempted handballs are in fact incorrect disposals. Hardly surprising with the number of throws that are allowed every week.
I don't think the umpire missed the fact that Kennedy didn't get his foot to the ball.

 

[2big sound]

You bringing up a discussion from 6 years ago?

Yeah we sucked then and no Carlton supporter will argue otherwise. Hence we know what it is like to be at the wrong end of the ladder for extended periods of time. We also didnt have the luxury of numerous handouts and the best coach in the league being gift wrapped for us either. One could seriously argue our coaching appointments in the last 2 decades have been nothing short of disastrous for us.

Jury is still out on Voss IMO even though we made a prelim last season and were 5 goals up on the Lions early in that game. Rest is history but i am not convinced at all.

I agree, going back six years is a bit much. Let's just go back a couple of weeks!!!

 

[carlton_99]

Yes, they are both HTB, but what has happened there is the umpire has not realised that the attempted handballs are in fact incorrect disposals. Hardly surprising with the number of throws that are allowed every week.
I don't think the umpire missed the fact that Kennedy didn't get his foot to the ball.

But Kennedy was far less prior than those two - once he goes back to a kicking position (i.e., not when picking up the ball) he attempts to kick it. Unless you are expecting him to kick it whilst he is picking it up which is sure to go all of 5m I'm not sure how much faster that attempt can be made.

Anyway like I said I thought the umpiring was just all around poor tonight as it is with most games. I thought you had a right to feel aggrieved with decisions like the Fisher one where it looked like he dropped the ball just prior to the tackle being made and yet HTB was called. I just felt like it was poor both ways.

 

[Roosurgence]

Watch this replay (not the best quality) at 0.25 speed. Once he picks it up, he takes 1 step and goes straight into his kicking motion. That is very, very rarely called HTB and when it is, it's called a howler by all and sundry.
It's a textbook play on with no prior and a genuine attempt.
It should be noted that Ralphy hates Carlton too. He's front and centre any time there's a chance to get a Carlton player suspended.

Are you still trying to convince yourself that this is play on?

It’s called INCORRECT DISPOSAL and is and should be paid 100 times out of 100.

Do Carlton fans know the rules?

He made an attempt so play on LOL

He made an attempt and disposed of the ball incorrectly.

If they stop paying this then throw the incorrect disposal rule out, because this is the definition of that rule.

Next you will be telling people that Motlop was making a genuine attempt to mark.

Absolute garbage at its finest.

Just admit it was another wrong call that went Carlton’s way and move on.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

I agree that it previously was not HTB, but it has probably been 5 or more years since those days. In situations like that it is called HTB 99% of the time currently.

That's just flat out wrong. Please provide a couple of examples.

 

[carlton_99]

Are you still trying to convince yourself that this is play on?

It’s called INCORRECT DISPOSAL and is and should be paid 100 times out of 100.

Do Carlton fans know the rules?

He made an attempt so play on LOL

He made an attempt and disposed of the ball incorrectly.

Dropping the ball is only incorrect disposal if the player has prior opportunity. If he doesn't all he has to do according to the rules is make a genuine attempt at correctly disposing of the football (i.e., try and handball or kick) - whether he is successful or not is irrelevant.

 

[Jebus]

Watch this replay (not the best quality) at 0.25 speed. Once he picks it up, he takes 1 step and goes straight into his kicking motion. That is very, very rarely called HTB

What's going on around here, this is bizarre... You don't need to watch it at 0.25, just scrub through by hand and watch every single step. Jumps in on his left and picks it up stepping off with his right leg, takes a step on the left, the right, his left again and tries to kick it on his right while being tackled.

It's as clear as day.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

But Kennedy was far less prior than those two - once he goes back to a kicking position (i.e., not when picking up the ball) he attempts to kick it. Unless you are expecting him to kick it whilst he is picking it up which is sure to go all of 5m I'm not sure how much faster that attempt can be made. Anyway like I said I thought the umpiring was just all around poor tonight as it is with most games.

I thought you had a right to feel aggrieved for decisions like the Fisher one where it looked like he dropped the ball just prior to the tackle being made. I just felt like it was poor both ways.

Yeah, I certainly didn't come in here to complain about the umpiring because I thought we were persecuted or anything. Overall, I think North probably got the worst of it, but that happens (especially when you are second last). My comments about the umpiring were from a wider perspective, where the uncertainty and inconsistency about the rules is detracting from the game.
I don't agree with you about the prior opportunity, as I believe Kennedy got himself into a position to kick the ball ("balanced and steady") BEFORE the tackle was applied. But even if you are correct, the issue is that near identical tackles are sometimes rewarded with a free, and sometimes not.

 

[Roosurgence]

Dropping the ball is only incorrect disposal if the player has prior opportunity. If he doesn't all he has to do according to the rules is make a genuine attempt at correctly disposing of the football (i.e., try and handball or kick) - whether he is successful or not is irrelevant.

Then the free kick and subsequent 50 to Carlton at the end of the game are wrong.

No prior opportunity and an attempt is made.

Guess what while the 50 was farcical the correct decision was made because he disposed of the ball incorrectly.

Carlton fans are so delusional.