It will be tested - in the court of law - Clarkos team will go down this path I am led to believe. It’s unfortunate for the accusers but they’ve made their bed and now they have to lay in it.
Coach Alastair Clarkson IV - HFC Racism Investigation Discussion
- Thread starter Cyber_punk
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Haven't posted here much but the emotive language around the " forced " abortion accusations still getting a run this morning.
It conjures up a scenario in the imagination of Clarko and Fagan " forcibly " dragging people into cars, driving them at speed to ( example ) Mitcham Private, screeching to a halt at the front doors and demanding to see the on-duty Obstetrician, Anaesthetist and Midwife and telling them that unless this doesn't happen this bloke can't play good football for Hawthorn.
Hearts to hearts
Premium Gold
- Mar 16, 2001
- 25,243
- 63,381
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
- Other Teams
- Wales, Eastwood, West Ham
That would be unfortunate for everyone. There’s no way a situation that starts from a power imbalance is resolved satisfactorily by one party exercising their superior power.
They have the right to clear their names.
Event Horizon
Brownlow Medallist
Veteran
10k Posts
North Melbourne - 2014 Daw, Black, Gibson Player Sponsor
North Melbourne - 2013 Daw, Black and Gibson Player Sponsorship
North Melbourne - North 2012 Player Sponsor
North Melbourne - North 2011 Player Sponsor
North Melbourne - North 2010 Player Sponsor
North Melbourne - North 2009 Player Sponsor
What superior power? The accusers are legally represented just like the accused are. If the AFL investigation isn't independent enough for them, the court of law surely will be. What else were they hoping? Just for a quiet mediation followed by payout or payout without the mediation?
I would have thought a court of law.
If you had been forced by an employer to terminate a pregnancy, you sue and get millions.
- Jan 23, 2019
- 13,635
- 49,663
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
I'd have thunk in a court there will be no power imbalance, as long as allegations can be proven al clarko is in trouble.
If they cannot be proven someone should have thought more closely before hitting the send button. Like I occasionally do.
But I would suggest that he was so caught up in his own self-indulgence that nary a thought was given to those accusing some very big hitters in Australian sport of some horrific allegations. They were used, not the first time I've witnessed that either.
Would it have hurt to have an article on how difficult it is due to cultural sensitivities to be successful in sport at the highest level. Would have started some conversation but isn't nearly as sexy and award winning as dropping the racist card on one of the most successful coaches in the modern era.
Now Alastair has but no choice other than being cleared in court, not his fault and I suspect not what he would have desired.
"oh well" seems to undersell just how bad the current situation is.
I feel for all involved and as I said day 1, no winners here.
Hearts to hearts
Premium Gold
- Mar 16, 2001
- 25,243
- 63,381
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
- Other Teams
- Wales, Eastwood, West Ham
Connections and money help in a court of law, same as everywhere. I’m not saying he or anyone accused of horrible things should just take it, I’m suggesting that when you are accused of using your power - your rank in the organisation, your reputation in the industry - to damage someone, if you want to remove that stigma then taking the fight to an arena where you have a massive advantage is not going to do it.
- Sep 11, 2014
- 11,790
- 23,120
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
Amy “Despite the league's insistence the investigation would be entirely independent, one of the women has now announced she will be taking a stand by refusing to participate”
So she wants to make awful accusations but doesn’t want to prove it nor provide evidence or even help get justice?
What a wild world we live in.
Devington
Brownlow Medallist
- Jun 4, 2013
- 18,555
- 49,265
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
The stigma he's fighting isn't that he he used his position of power over someone, it's that he's a racist that tried to have an aboriginal baby aborted so that the father could play better football.
If that one allegation wasn't made I would agree with you. But it was, and it has been by far the most damaging and emotive one.
What you see is what there is.
And unfortunately the person making these claims are not showing anything to suggest there is anything of substance. While any human being would support her and her claims - it goes back to ‘what you see is what there is’. The whole world, other than ‘Rusty?’ can’t see anything.
And unfortunately the person making these claims are not showing anything to suggest there is anything of substance. While any human being would support her and her claims - it goes back to ‘what you see is what there is’. The whole world, other than ‘Rusty?’ can’t see anything.
Bloody oath. 1000%
I would bet even if a totally external review board separate from the AFL and anyone involved was brought in to investigate that these people would still find an reason to not participate.
astrovic
Premiership Player
As someone who spends far too much time in Court, from my experience - connections don't help much (hell, being on friendly terms with a judge usually works against you, as the judge goes out of their way to not show any bias!), and money only helps if your opponent is not well resourced (and even then, having all the money in the world achieves little if you have a shit case and your opponent is prepared to fight).
Seems to me that the complainants have the resources. In my experience, high quality lawyers acting pro bono are a very challenging opponent, because they are not "on the clock" and therefore not concerned about over spending their time (and therefore their client's money) on their client's case. I've found acting pro bono to be quite liberating, because I can actually relax and enjoy putting the kind of time into the case that normally I wouldn't or couldn't, because the cost/benefit return simply wasn't there. Which means I can give the other side hell, and it really doesn't matter to me how big that opponent is (the bigger the more fun, really).
The real power imbalance is the emotional investment, which is often underappreciated. Disputes are very draining, and disputes over deeply personal issues are the most draining of all. For clients, simply getting an email from their own lawyer can give them a sleepless night or two. Every word in every document takes on a deeper and more impacful meaning, and the trauma of litigation can be lasting. That's something that applies to these complainants very much, and applies real world, minute by minute pressure on their resolve and ability to continue on. It also applies to Clarko and Fagan too, by the way - the accused is far from free from the emotional stresses involved. The party that doesn't feel it is the one that is a faceless organisation (ie the AFL) - no one involved in handling the dispute actually "did the deed". They don't have that same pressure.
Problem is, there is virtually no way to overcome that. Put the issues in any venue or forum you like, and the same emotional weight comes to bear on those that are personally impacted. Handle the allegations any way you want - all the best practice in the world is going to do very little to alleviate the stress. That's a function of dispute resolution more than it is any real or perceived power imbalance (though no doubt the feeling that your opponent has all the power, whether true or not, definitely adds to the stress). If I had an answer to that question...well I'd probably be out of a job.
giantroo
Bleeding Blue and White
North Melbourne - 2024 Hugh Greenwood Player Sponsor
Veteran
North Melbourne - 2023 Ailish Considine and Bella Eddy Player Sponsor
North Melbourne Season 7 - Bella Eddey and Vicki Wall Player Sponsor
North Melbourne - 2023 Aaron Hall and Flynn Perez Player Sponsor
10k Posts
30k Posts
North Melbourne - 2022 Aaron Hall and Flynn Perez Player Sponsor
AFL 2022: ‘Matter of compartmentalising’: Alastair Clarkson ready to coach North Melbourne Kangaroos amid Hawthorn racism storm, AFL investigation
www.theage.com.au
‘Matter of compartmentalising’: Clarkson arrives to coach the Kangaroos
By Jon Pierik
November 2, 2022 — 11.42am, register or subscribe to save articles for later.
Alastair Clarkson maintains he can juggle the demands of beginning to turn around the fortunes of a club which has finished bottom of the ladder for two years, while dealing with an AFL investigation which could shape whether he is allowed to continue coaching.
Clarkson’s official first day as North Melbourne coach at Arden St coincided on Wednesday with a statement from one of the five First Nations families who have made racism allegations towards Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt from their time at Hawthorn between 2008-16, which the former Hawks officials deny.
The AFL investigation is expected to finish, complete with its findings, by December 22.
Fagan, the former Hawthorn football department chief and now Brisbane coach, and Clarkson had taken a leave of absence after the allegations first emerged, but they have now been allowed to return.
Clarkson, the four-time premiership coach, insisted he and Fagan, also a long-time football department member, have the mental capability of guiding players and leading training, while separately taking part, with their own legal counsel, in a major investigation.
“I suppose the advantage for Chris and I is that we have been around the game for a long period of time. It’s just a matter of compartmentalising things,” Clarkson, in a relatively upbeat mood, said.
“Obviously, the investigation will take our most significant priority over the course of the next five or six weeks, however long it takes. In the meantime, we have a really good team of people. They have worked pretty well without me the last four or five weeks.
“I am sure they will do the same. I will just come in and out of the program as I see fit but, the number one priority, will be to contribute to that investigation.”
Todd Viney, the Kangaroos’ new football department chief and the man Clarkson is answerable to, has played a key role recently, including through the trade period, when the club could not retain former No.1 draft pick Jason Horne-Francis. Viney also kept a close eye on Clarkson’s press conference on Wednesday.
Players have also taken it upon themselves to remain focused through this late unexpected drama, coming in what had already been a tumultuous season.
Kangaroos skipper Jack Ziebell, midfielder Jy Simpkin and emerging but inconsistent star Tarryn Thomas were among a dozen players who completed strenuous running drills at Arden St on Wednesday, despite the start of pre-season training still officially almost three weeks away. First-to-four year players are due back on November 21, but senior players are not expected back until early December, as part of their collective bargaining agreement.
In the statement released by Indigenous woman “Amy” on Wednesday, her lawyers wrote that “the AFL, Hawthorn and those who are alleged to have engaged in inappropriate conduct are all reported as welcoming this move. They have gone back to business as usual, including Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan being returned to their coaching posts. For Amy, it is not business as usual.”
Clarkson, however, said he was entitled to the presumption of innocence.
“That [returning to work] is a decision that has been made by the club and myself,” he said.
“At the minute, they are just allegations and we are going to defend ourselves pretty strongly in the investigation and, like anyone in this world, until the allegations are proven, you should be able to get on and lead your life.
“I really just want to get through the investigation with the AFL. It’s been a tough four or five weeks for all of us. What we do know is that we always had the care of our players right at the highest priority of our football club.”
Clarkson has endured several controversies through his career, including over his own behaviour. He once punched a wall in the coach’s box at the MCG in anger, and in another case had to apologise for abusing a junior football umpire.
However, this latest controversy is of a far greater magnitude, and threatens to potentially end the career of a man considered the greatest modern coach.
“Chris, Jase [Burt] and myself have gone through a tough four weeks, without a doubt. But we are pleased that the terms of reference have been stamped by the AFL, and we just await information from the AFL on when all that will commence,” Clarkson said.
“[We are] looking forward to the chance to contribute to that and, in the meantime, get on with what we need to do here.”
- Aug 6, 2021
- 10,745
- 31,162
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
I dunno mate. I reckon once the AFL investigation is done and dusted, his main priority would turn to coaching our mob.
If he gets an editor's note on the Jackson story that retracts the key allegations - which shouldn't be too hard if Amy doesn't want her claims tested in court - and then he reaches a settlement that pays his legal bills - again, not too difficult if the claimants aren't prepared to go to court - would've thought that'd be the end of the matter.
The alternative is that he's essentially unavailable to fulfill the demands of a senior coach for several months because he's too busy attending the supreme court.
Grogg
Norm Smith Medallist
You can understand that though, given that they have essentially been used to tell a story by a journalist that saw them as an opportunity. Throw in the fact they were reluctant participants from the very beginning of The Hawthorn Review, to the publicised Jackson piece, I'm not surprised they don't want a bar of any of it. I don't think they ever really did.
For arguments sake, say Ämy is made aware of the Hawthorn Review taking place and she is encouraged to share her experiences. Some assurances are given by Egan, so she agrees despite some reservation and outlines her personal experience. The next thing she knows is being door-stopped by some ABC journo, a Russell Jackson (???) who apparently has some knowledge of an internal review. This guy shows his bonafides, points to some authored articles, asks if he can just have a chat. No names, just a chat. A rapport is established, some trust is established and they agree to talk again in a day or two. Amy then opens up a little more, more assurances are given on annonymity, etc. Story drops, bombs go off and the next thing you know Amy finds herself front and centre of a process she never really wanted a part of from day 1.
No winners, except the lawyers.
I dont understand how it can get anymore independent who else is going to organise it if the AFL doesnt?
- Jun 2, 2010
- 5,958
- 6,858
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
What I find extraordinary is that any journalist would want to publish any story without understanding all perspectives and making sure context is accounted for in any situation. It’s beyond belief. Whether the story is actually true or not….how can you not consider all sides before hitting “submit”? (And of course allowing TIME for all parties to respond).
Serious question.
If the person or persons who are making the allegations refuse to participate should they be entitled to on-going anonymity?
Seems very unfair that someone can make such serious allegations, refuse to back their statements up and walk away reputation in tacked, while the alleged perpetrators get smeared in public.
I think in the future it would stop people making unfounded allegations, if they didn't continue in a investigation and knowing their names would become public.
Thoughts?
If the person or persons who are making the allegations refuse to participate should they be entitled to on-going anonymity?
Seems very unfair that someone can make such serious allegations, refuse to back their statements up and walk away reputation in tacked, while the alleged perpetrators get smeared in public.
I think in the future it would stop people making unfounded allegations, if they didn't continue in a investigation and knowing their names would become public.
Thoughts?
- Feb 26, 2014
- 2,033
- 8,091
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
- Other Teams
- Boston Celtics
Surely Clarko gets the right to clear his name in a court of law. Similarly if the aggrieved are to be heard without question a court would be the best place for them to do this. To suggest the legal system is not equitable to all parties is asinine. It’s the only system this can and should be where this matter is dealt with now.
And think of the Brittany Higgins case & how difficult it is for women in general to pursue cases of sexual assault through the courts.
Not defending the complainants in this case because there's been no opportunity for the defendants to defend themselves. Just pointing out the pain and anguish involved in a broad range of cases involving women and their bodies.
- Oct 8, 2011
- 1,385
- 2,774
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
- Other Teams
- Wigan Athletic
Not surprised if so. There's only do many players it could be if contracted only for 23 and the description in the OP
Del191229
He bangs the drums
30k Posts
Veteran
10k Posts
North Melbourne - 2021 Taylor Garner and Flynn Perez Player Sponsor
North Melbourne - 2020 Taylor Garner and Flynn Perez Player Sponsor
North Melbourne - 2020 Aileen Gilroy Player Sponsor
- Aug 21, 2018
- 33,007
- 83,143
FWIW I don't blame Amy for not participating.
She spoke to Egan on the grounds it'd be anonymous and not see the light of day. She trusted Egan because of his cultural standing (he says so himself).
Then Egan leaks the report to Rusty and convinces her to speak to the journo. It could be argued he's actually using HIS cultural power imbalance here but that's a whole other story and one I'm not qualified to interrogate properly ... interested in your take there ferball
Rusty writes the story as he did, and then its kaboom, and lawyers at ten paces.
That's very different to what Amy initially signed up for.
I believe Amy in what she says, but her most damaging claims are hearsay and there's points in her story - the suggestion her Dad is violent and that's why the club "separated" Ian from her - where her no doubt heartfelt belief that her Dad is a good man simply isn't enough, it needs to be properly tested.
Now she's in the shitful position she was always going to end up in when Jackson chose to name Clarkson and co.
As Makeshift Park very astutely posted, its highly unlikely this ends up in court.
It is hard to see how the AFL investigation can find anything other than the abortion allegation is simply untrue if Amy isn't there.
It's highly likely we'll get several layers around that to contextualise it to a degree of detail that effectively proves the "he leaned over me and told me to kill my unborn kid" claim to be totally false.
That'd lead to a retraction and apology by the ABC.
The really interesting question now is if Amy not taking part also means Ian doesn't too.
She spoke to Egan on the grounds it'd be anonymous and not see the light of day. She trusted Egan because of his cultural standing (he says so himself).
Then Egan leaks the report to Rusty and convinces her to speak to the journo. It could be argued he's actually using HIS cultural power imbalance here but that's a whole other story and one I'm not qualified to interrogate properly ... interested in your take there ferball
Rusty writes the story as he did, and then its kaboom, and lawyers at ten paces.
That's very different to what Amy initially signed up for.
I believe Amy in what she says, but her most damaging claims are hearsay and there's points in her story - the suggestion her Dad is violent and that's why the club "separated" Ian from her - where her no doubt heartfelt belief that her Dad is a good man simply isn't enough, it needs to be properly tested.
Now she's in the shitful position she was always going to end up in when Jackson chose to name Clarkson and co.
As Makeshift Park very astutely posted, its highly unlikely this ends up in court.
It is hard to see how the AFL investigation can find anything other than the abortion allegation is simply untrue if Amy isn't there.
It's highly likely we'll get several layers around that to contextualise it to a degree of detail that effectively proves the "he leaned over me and told me to kill my unborn kid" claim to be totally false.
That'd lead to a retraction and apology by the ABC.
The really interesting question now is if Amy not taking part also means Ian doesn't too.
The Filth Wizard
Just here for the zipline
- Jul 26, 2007
- 95,434
- 171,917
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
- Other Teams
- Arsenal, Coney Island Warriors
- Moderator
- #425
My first thought was another player who was unexpectedly dropped for the final game.
Similar threads
