Coach Alastair Clarkson IV - HFC Racism Investigation Discussion

[shintemaster]

That amount of money says a hell of a lot hey.

It does, but not necessarily what you would assume. Could just as easily read this as not offering "too much" as that could be interpreted as an admission of higher culpability from Hawthorn.

Unfortunately for the people in the middle it's a bit of a game for the lawyers.

 

[Loose_Cannon]

It was a private message sent in good faith, whilst not judging the content of the message is he not free to use a carriage service to say what he wants to to whoever in a private message? i would be asking more from the party that leaked it. But in todays society its pretty silly for a person with a public profile to be expressing such matters and being naive enough to believe there wouldn't be blowback if leaked.

I don't have the answer to this question, but how many people have to be in the group chat before it isn't really private?

There is probably a point where a reasonable person should no longer expect privacy due to the number in the group chat, and I myself don't even expect DMs to remain private these days with people being able to screenshot and share.

 

[Samsquanch]

you comment as though she has credibility?

Wilson. like most of the media leeches is a parasite.

 

[Disco Dew]

Wilson. like most of the media leeches is a parathite.

FTFY

 

[Samsquanch]

FTFY

Jutht becauth she hath a lithp, we shouldnth make fun ofth her. Thame thing for her apearanth.

 

[DunderHead]

Opening shot. Low ball. This will go on for a bit.

 

[Disco Dew]

Jutht becauth she hath a lithp, we shouldnth make fun ofth her. Thame thing for her apearanth.

I have a lisp so it’s ok…

Probably isn’t but **** it

 

[Samsquanch]

I have a lisp so it’s ok…

Probably isn’t but **** it

Yeah, I know. But you don't go about pontificating and putting out your opinion as if other people's thoughts aren't as important as your own.

 

[giantroo]

 

[JGreezy]

For those who can't access, who wrote the report and do they have access to evidence that we don't?

 

[grimface_87]

For those who can't access, who wrote the report and do they have access to evidence that we don't?

Independent report says racism was present at Hawthorn​

An independent report says the treatment of First Nations players and their families when at Hawthorn constituted racism.
The report, prepared by Deakin professor Yin Paradies and provided to AFL investigators, also said the families could be subject to “victim blaming” as a consequence of levelling claims of racism against Hawthorn and former coaches Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt.
The report, commissioned by lawyers for the First Nations families, assessed the claims made by the families, including claims of separation, and also determined the impact on their health.
Prof Paradies, one of Australia’s research leaders on the health and societal effects of racism, also found that other First Nations players could now be reluctant to speak up if they were confronted with racism.

Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan during their time at Hawthorn.
“Ongoing instances of racism within an organisation or system are indicative of an environment that is tolerant of racism,” Prof Paradies said in his report.
“Such an environment tends to result in reduced trust in management … and perceived lack of organisational support to address and respond to racism.
“This would likely have a dampening effect on the willingness of First Nations players to speak out with their own experiences of racial vilification within the AFL system.
“Ongoing instances of racism are likely to be taken by First Nations players as an indication that racism is tolerated in the AFL and that there is scant chance of positive outcomes eventuating, following their reporting of racist experiences. In fact, in such environments, such reporting of racism is most likely to have negative repercussions, including victim-blaming.
“As noted in a study of racism on the field in Australian junior sport, any formal complaint of racial vilification would require a club to ‘save face by defending their player and denying the racism’. There is thus a tendency to informally investigate, but only as a symbolic non-performative act, with no expectations that any organisational or cultural change would result or that racism would be less likely as a result of ‘going through the motions’ of an informal investigation.’’
In May 2023, the AFL found no adverse findings against former Hawthorn coaches Clarkson, Fagan and Burt. Two investigations, one by Justice John Middleton and the other by Gordon Legal, found there was “no basis whatsoever” to support suggestions a subculture of racism had existed at Hawthorn during the club’s golden premiership era of 2008-2015.
They found the three accused club officials had behaved in anything other than a “caring” way for their players.

The Gordon Legal report asserted there was “no sufficient evidence” to substantiate the vast majority of the claims made against the former Hawks trio.
Failed mediation talks in the Human Rights Commissions has now resulted in the claims being heard in the Federal Court.
Professor Paradies’ report will be tabled as evidence at the hearing.
More broadly, his report said the “ongoing incidences of racism” that had been made public were “highly likely” to be the “tip of the iceberg” in relation to the prevalence of racism within AFL clubs.
“Significant, transparent, authentic engaged effort to respond to racism within organisations can – and does – yield reductions in the incidence, prevalence and impacts of racism,’’ the report said. “As such, it is unarguably the case that the ongoing occurrences of racism within the AFL indicate a failure to redress racism and a neglect of the system change required to address the underlying cultural and organisational conditions that continue to allow racism to thrive within the AFL.”
The report said racism could result in “acute and chronic” emotional and psychological impacts for victims.
“The potential mental health impacts of racism include depression, anxiety, psychological stress and poor self-worth,’’ the report said.
“There is evidence that the wellbeing impacts of lack of action by bystanders and authorities is greater than the original impact of (vicarious) racism itself.”
Prof Paradies was part of a 12-person expert group on anti-racism, established as a key recommendation of Collingwood’s Do Better report.

 

[JGreezy]

Thanks

So a report commissioned by the players, with only information from the players, written by someone whose focus of study is the societal impact of racism, concluded that racism existed...

 

[Grogg]

I find this type of article very frustrating. The journalist who penned the above article has avoided any specifics re Clarkson, Fagan, etc and gone with quoting the parts of Professor Paradies report that identifies generalities which any reasonable person would agree with.

eg:

“Ongoing instances of racism within an organisation or system are indicative of an environment that is tolerant of racism,” Prof Paradies said in his report.
“Such an environment tends to result in reduced trust in management … and perceived lack of organisational support to address and respond to racism.
“This would likely have a dampening effect on the willingness of First Nations players to speak out with their own experiences of racial vilification within the AFL system.
“Ongoing instances of racism are likely to be taken by First Nations players as an indication that racism is tolerated in the AFL and that there is scant chance of positive outcomes eventuating, following their reporting of racist experiences. In fact, in such environments, such reporting of racism is most likely to have negative repercussions, including victim-blaming.
“As noted in a study of racism on the field in Australian junior sport, any formal complaint of racial vilification would require a club to ‘save face by defending their player and denying the racism’. There is thus a tendency to informally investigate, but only as a symbolic non-performative act, with no expectations that any organisational or cultural change would result or that racism would be less likely as a result of ‘going through the motions’ of an informal investigation.’’

 

[the big lebowski]

Thanks

So a report commissioned by the players, with only information from the players, written by someone whose focus of study is the societal impact of racism, concluded that racism existed...

 

[DarkPhoenix]

"Independent report"
"Commissioned by the lawyers representing the families"

Those 2 statements are mutually exclusive. As soon as "commissioning" happens, there's likelihood of bias.

That's why so many studies that say cereal is the healthiest breakfast for kids, are commissioned by Kellogs.

 

[The Law]

Thanks

So a report commissioned by the players, with only information from the players, written by someone whose focus of study is the societal impact of racism, concluded that racism existed...

I'm not surprised. Happens often these days. There are a lot of opinion pieces written in places like 'the conversation' or a really low tier journal and then people with cite that claiming the new definition for a certain topic. Throw a little money at the right person and you can make anything appear legitimate.

 

[Roostorm]

So am l reading this right…an independent report done by a university professor, paid by the lawyers of the First Nations people, who we found out really stuffed up the whole process that Dennis Denuto could do better in his sleep, has found evidence supporting their claim that :
a retired Oxford University Federal Court Justice Middleton and an entire Law firm Gordon Legal could not…..
WOW…..who would’ve seen that coming……
while we are at it get this professor to locate Nessy, Big Foot, the Yowie, why is the universe never ending, is beer better than wine and how come my paypacket doesn’t cover as much as it once did…..

Who would’ve thought hey…an ole university Professor….whom lm assuming is in the legal department as that would be truly astonishing….hmm next time let’s by pass the whole legal system and put it to the professor.

What an absolute joke this is becoming….

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

So am l reading this right…an independent report done by a university professor, paid by the lawyers of the First Nations people, who we found out really stuffed up the whole process that Dennis Denuto could do better in his sleep, has found evidence supporting their claim that :
a retired Oxford University Federal Court Justice Middleton and an entire Law firm Gordon Legal could not…..
WOW…..who would’ve seen that coming……
while we are at it get this professor to locate Nessy, Big Foot, the Yowie, why is the universe never ending, is beer better than wine and how come my paypacket doesn’t cover as much as it once did…..

Who would’ve thought hey…an ole university Professor….whom lm assuming is in the legal department as that would be truly astonishing….hmm next time let’s by pass the whole legal system and put it to the professor.

What an absolute joke this is becoming….

I'm not sure where you were going with that but for the record, the Professor, Yin Paradies, is not in the legal department. He's in the Faculty of Arts and Education, and more specifically, the School of Humanities and Social Sciences. He is also Chair in Race Relations. His teaching and research interests include:

• Health, social and economic effects of racism
• Anti-racism theory, policy and practice
• Race and intercultural relations
• Indigenous knowledges and decoloniality

Make of that what you will.

 

[koshari]

I'm not surprised. Happens often these days. There are a lot of opinion pieces written in places like 'the conversation' or a really low tier journal and then people with cite that claiming the new definition for a certain topic. Throw a little money at the right person and you can make anything appear legitimate.

Iam not going to argue the conclusion in deaken report as logically its sound. (not that its my buisness to do so anyway). However Factually nothings changed. The report suggests racism occurred based on the accusations. However none have been proven. So in a nutshell its basically an allegation based on earlier unproven allegations.

Be like me saying "if someone stole property that they would be a theif". But with no evidence that said party stole anything its moot. But logically the statement is still correct.

 

[koshari]

So am l reading this right…an independent report done by a university professor, paid by the lawyers of the First Nations people, who we found out really stuffed up the whole process that Dennis Denuto could do better in his sleep, has found evidence supporting their claim that :
a retired Oxford University Federal Court Justice Middleton and an entire Law firm Gordon Legal could not…..
WOW…..who would’ve seen that coming……
while we are at it get this professor to locate Nessy, Big Foot, the Yowie, why is the universe never ending, is beer better than wine and how come my paypacket doesn’t cover as much as it once did…..

Who would’ve thought hey…an ole university Professor….whom lm assuming is in the legal department as that would be truly astonishing….hmm next time let’s by pass the whole legal system and put it to the professor.

What an absolute joke this is becoming….

The bit you failed to question is was the professor paid to table the report, i cant see any evidence in the text? And of money did indeed change hands the "independency" of the author surey comes into question, sheesh these days even low bit influencers generally disclose their association with the product.

 

[koshari]

"Independent report"
"Commissioned by the lawyers representing the families"

Those 2 statements are mutually exclusive. As soon as "commissioning" happens, there's likelihood of bias.

That's why so many studies that say cereal is the healthiest breakfast for kids, are commissioned by Kellogs.

Re the cerials, factually they may well be healthy breakfasts. The Kellogg range are just not a very good example of healthy cerials. Unprocessed oats or rice are better examples. But still the claim isnt factually untrue.

 

[Roostorm]

I'm not sure where you were going with that but for the record, the Professor, Yin Paradies, is not in the legal department. He's in the Faculty of Arts and Education, and more specifically, the School of Humanities and Social Sciences. He is also Chair in Race Relations. His teaching and research interests include:

• Health, social and economic effects of racism
• Anti-racism theory, policy and practice
• Race and intercultural relations
• Indigenous knowledges and decoloniality

Make of that what you will.

I was being sarcastic…a professor vs Oxford lawyer vs law firm is not what you often see…..and your confirmation of him not being in the legal department gave me a giggle ….
But thank you l appreciate your post for providing his background …now makes sense why they approached him….
l still find it mind blowing that he finds a case from the same evidence that was tabled to legal experts to cast their eye over it with the rule of law…
Guess it will be interesting when it hits the courts…professors view point vs legal opinion…..
we wait and see.

 

[Roostorm]

The bit you failed to question is was the professor paid to table the report, i cant see any evidence in the text? And of money did indeed change hands the "independency" of the author surey comes into question, sheesh these days even low bit influencers generally disclose their association with the product.

Good point …one would assume there would have to be …maybe some kind of donation to the faculty probably….not likely for a professor to just drop everything and do it for charity…guess it will eventually come out in the wash.

 

[koshari]

Good point …one would assume there would have to be …maybe some kind of donation to the faculty probably….not likely for a professor to just drop everything and do it for charity…guess it will eventually come out in the wash.

Still should be disclosed as part of the report if its to be taken with any credibility.

It reminds me of the kind of interlectual they get on the evening news thats paid to offer their insights for issues such as how hostages are feeling when there has been a hijacking with absolutely zero knowledge of the individuals involved.

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

I was being sarcastic…a professor vs Oxford lawyer vs law firm is not what you often see…..and your confirmation of him not being in the legal department gave me a giggle ….
But thank you l appreciate your post for providing his background …now makes sense why they approached him….
l still find it mind blowing that he finds a case from the same evidence that was tabled to legal experts to cast their eye over it with the rule of law…
Guess it will be interesting when it hits the courts…professors view point vs legal opinion…..
we wait and see.

Yes I guessed sarcasm but didn't want to assume. I'm sure this bloke is no dill but he was very well chosen for the task. Lawyers are very good at nurturing relationships with experts in various fields who will deliver a convincing and authoritative opinion to help build a case.