Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

Should Hawks Be Punished?

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Roby said:
DGB has yet to play 30 games, you may end up having egg on your face.
Click to expand...

I also think his best role is occupied by the current skipper. Kid is not only adjusting to AFL but having to play a new way as well.
 

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The 747 said:
16th
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According to Champion Data, since round 2 we are:

3rd in the comp for ball movement
6th in contested ball
1st contested ball once hits deck

Building nicely.
 
The 747 said:
16th on the ladder. And the two sides below are all time bad sides.
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With the youngest list in the comp and a rebuilt midfield that is now top 5 for centre clearances, from 18th in 2022.


I can do this all day. 😇
 
The 747 said:
I would ask why your performance is worse with a better car.
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And right there is the real question. As Austin Powers' dad said, it's "not how big it is, son, it's how you use it"...

Who's better off - the 1/2 draft pick going to NM or WC, or the 3rd place who gets the Hawks...?

You never know, WC have the resources lying on the floor to become elite again immediately, the Shinboner spirit just won't go away, and there are many "watch next year" stories which fizzed...but watching this season, where would you want to go...?

You know which teams seem to have their shit together and which ones don't. And when you don't, you go to the bottom and will stay there until there's a rethink off field. Lots of examples of lists struggling and then succeeding because of that, and examples of successful lineups tumbling for the same reason...

Drafting is a very overrated phenomenon...only a handful of first pick players have won a flag with the team that drafted them, and the real bulk of premiership players starts when you get past the first five - because this is the point where the good organisations finally get to choose...
 

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The 747 said:
16th
Click to expand...

I think both can be true in a way.

We are not 'better' than last season in the sense that we had won 7 games and had a percentage around 90 this time last year and this year we have won 5 games with a percentage of 80. Last year we had 2 close losses and 2 close wins and this year 3 close losses and 1 close win. The main difference between last year and this year is that this year when we have been bad, we have been very bad (even if only for a half).

We lost 3 games by 50+ last year. This year, we have lost 8 games by 50+!

However, I do think we are still better placed in terms of our rebuild. Our senior experience kept us more competitive throughout the 4 quarters last season. This season our youth has sometimes meant we have had a horror quarter (such as when we lead your team at half time and then put in a shocking 3rd quarter where our less experienced players could not halt momentum at all). Our youth has shouldered a lot more responsibility this year and has grown significantly as a result. I think that has us better placed than last season in terms of being genuinely competitive in the future. I will admit that there is still a long way to go and whether it comes to fruition remains to be seen (but I'm a lot more pleased with where we are positioned this year compared to last, particularly through the midfield which is essential for teams wanting to win finals).

I also agree with your earlier comments (albeit probably trolling) that some Hawthorn supporters are perhaps a little too satisfied with a team sitting 16th that has copped a hiding nearly every second week - as a LOT still has to go right to see us progress into contention and it is far from a guarantee (as many teams have demonstrated already). However, the plan and direction is really clear for all to see, as has been the progress in performance by a large contingent of our younger players (significant improvement this year from Day, Worpel, Nash, midfield in general and emergence of Mitchell, Weddle and to a lesser extent Ward, McDonald, Brockman, etc). In the final years of Clarkson, the direction and plan for the list and club were much harder to see/make sense of. Now we can see the clear intention and direction of the club, which is clear cause for the optimism you are seeing, not to mention that whilst the bar is set pretty low, most of the football punditry (as this thread evidences) had us locked in for the spoon and were talking about a Melbourne 2012 type season. Whilst 5-8 wins is obviously not world beating, it's still a fair way ahead of what most were predicting for this stage of the rebuild (ground zero for age/experience).
 
Guardian Hawk said:
I think both can be true in a way.

We are not 'better' than last season in the sense that we had won 7 games and had a percentage around 90 this time last year and this year we have won 5 games with a percentage of 80. Last year we had 2 close losses and 2 close wins and this year 3 close losses and 1 close win. The main difference between last year and this year is that this year when we have been bad, we have been very bad (even if only for a half).

We lost 3 games by 50+ last year. This year, we have lost 8 games by 50+!

However, I do think we are still better placed in terms of our rebuild. Our senior experience kept us more competitive throughout the 4 quarters last season. This season our youth has sometimes meant we have had a horror quarter (such as when we lead your team at half time and then put in a shocking 3rd quarter where our less experienced players could not halt momentum at all). Our youth has shouldered a lot more responsibility this year and has grown significantly as a result. I think that has us better placed than last season in terms of being genuinely competitive in the future. I will admit that there is still a long way to go and whether it comes to fruition remains to be seen (but I'm a lot more pleased with where we are positioned this year compared to last, particularly through the midfield which is essential for teams wanting to win finals).

I also agree with your earlier comments (albeit probably trolling) that some Hawthorn supporters are perhaps a little too satisfied with a team sitting 16th that has copped a hiding nearly every second week - as a LOT still has to go right to see us progress into contention and it is far from a guarantee (as many teams have demonstrated already). However, the plan and direction is really clear for all to see, as has been the progress in performance by a large contingent of our younger players (significant improvement this year from Day, Worpel, Nash, midfield in general and emergence of Mitchell, Weddle and to a lesser extent Ward, McDonald, Brockman, etc). In the final years of Clarkson, the direction and plan for the list and club were much harder to see/make sense of. Now we can see the clear intention and direction of the club, which is clear cause for the optimism you are seeing, not to mention that whilst the bar is set pretty low, most of the football punditry (as this thread evidences) had us locked in for the spoon and were talking about a Melbourne 2012 type season. Whilst 5-8 wins is obviously not world beating, it's still a fair way ahead of what most were predicting for this stage of the rebuild (ground zero for age/experience).
Click to expand...

Disagree I am trolling, I am just posting the contrary view to the "everything is great" fest that is the last few pages. I agree that if you look at specific things it is on the right track but the results are the results.
 
The 747 said:
Disagree I am trolling, I am just posting the contrary view to the "everything is great" fest that is the last few pages. I agree that if you look at specific things it is on the right track but the results are the results.
Click to expand...
See if you can find a single AFL commentator or journo who has said Hawthorn’s season in 2023 is about wins and losses?

You won’t, because anyone with a skerrick of understanding of what a rebuild is about knows that 2023 was never about wins and losses for Hawthorn, which is why you’re consistent reference to the ladder is either a troll or a window into how little you understand about a list build.

I think we both know where the truth lies.
 
Unfortunately for most clubs they have to rebuild. Clubs like Geelong get a superstar country boy every 2-3 years for a bag of half eaten twisties. Just the way it is I suppose
 
Strapping Young Lad said:
See if you can find a single AFL commentator or journo who has said Hawthorn’s season in 2023 is about wins and losses?

You won’t, because anyone with a skerrick of understanding of what a rebuild is about knows that 2023 was never about wins and losses for Hawthorn, which is why you’re consistent reference to the ladder is either a troll or a window into how little you understand about a list build.

I think we both know where the truth lies.
Click to expand...

Once again you get upset and personal when you don't like what someone posts. Poor form.

This is a main board thread about Hawthorn and the ladder is relevant to the AFL competition.
 
The 747 said:
Disagree I am trolling, I am just posting the contrary view to the "everything is great" fest that is the last few pages. I agree that if you look at specific things it is on the right track but the results are the results.
Click to expand...

Ok, fair enough (I suppose it has felt as though you have perhaps enjoyed some satisfaction in our demise, noting that you have posted over 160 times in this thread and as far as I can tell, all of them have been negative to Hawthorn or "balancing the Hawthorn supporter viewpoint" and none positive or "balancing the opposition supporter/tanking for Reid/going to be worst ever side" viewpoint)
 
The 747 said:
Once again you get upset and personal when you don't like what someone posts. Poor form.

This is a main board thread about Hawthorn and the ladder is relevant to the AFL competition.
Click to expand...
Come on now, I’m not upset and nor am I getting personal. What is happening is you’re getting defensive at being called out for your posts.

You claim you’re not trolling yet you continually point to a metric that no one else would ever consider being the metric that Hawthorn will be judged against the 2023.

So either you’re trolling or you’re ignorant about what a rebuild means.

I don’t think you’re stupid.
We both know the answer as to what you’re doing.
 
Guardian Hawk said:
I think both can be true in a way.

We are not 'better' than last season in the sense that we had won 7 games and had a percentage around 90 this time last year and this year we have won 5 games with a percentage of 80. Last year we had 2 close losses and 2 close wins and this year 3 close losses and 1 close win. The main difference between last year and this year is that this year when we have been bad, we have been very bad (even if only for a half).

We lost 3 games by 50+ last year. This year, we have lost 8 games by 50+!

However, I do think we are still better placed in terms of our rebuild. Our senior experience kept us more competitive throughout the 4 quarters last season. This season our youth has sometimes meant we have had a horror quarter (such as when we lead your team at half time and then put in a shocking 3rd quarter where our less experienced players could not halt momentum at all). Our youth has shouldered a lot more responsibility this year and has grown significantly as a result. I think that has us better placed than last season in terms of being genuinely competitive in the future. I will admit that there is still a long way to go and whether it comes to fruition remains to be seen (but I'm a lot more pleased with where we are positioned this year compared to last, particularly through the midfield which is essential for teams wanting to win finals).

I also agree with your earlier comments (albeit probably trolling) that some Hawthorn supporters are perhaps a little too satisfied with a team sitting 16th that has copped a hiding nearly every second week - as a LOT still has to go right to see us progress into contention and it is far from a guarantee (as many teams have demonstrated already). However, the plan and direction is really clear for all to see, as has been the progress in performance by a large contingent of our younger players (significant improvement this year from Day, Worpel, Nash, midfield in general and emergence of Mitchell, Weddle and to a lesser extent Ward, McDonald, Brockman, etc). In the final years of Clarkson, the direction and plan for the list and club were much harder to see/make sense of. Now we can see the clear intention and direction of the club, which is clear cause for the optimism you are seeing, not to mention that whilst the bar is set pretty low, most of the football punditry (as this thread evidences) had us locked in for the spoon and were talking about a Melbourne 2012 type season. Whilst 5-8 wins is obviously not world beating, it's still a fair way ahead of what most were predicting for this stage of the rebuild (ground zero for age/experience).
Click to expand...

Newcombe, Nash, Ward, MacDonald, Worpel, Day, Brockman and Butler have all statistically improved this season.

Lewis, Moore and Sicily are hovering around the same output (ie. Quality players whose peak form is towards the elite end).

Mackenzie, Weddle and Mitchell have all debuted, with two scoring rising star nominations and the other being the most highly rated junior of that trio.

16th is 16th. But this year was about everything l just posted, more so than the ladder.

Also easy to ignore that if not for 3 heartbreaking losses from winnable positions we'd be 8-10 and only 2 wins from 8th position.
 

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Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

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