Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[Upgrayedd]

This

Kane Cornes is a dick and exists to get clicks.


Clearly we wern't going anywhere too fast, figuratively and literally with the pace of the midfield, I mean There was a huge problem with pace, Our back 5/6 look set in the future but we have a one paced midfield, lack depth and speed in the mid and need another key forward. We've been at war with some dissapointing results last few years and huge variance between our good/bad so we needed to eventually rip the bandaid off or just be ok/shit before being completely shit

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

This still isn’t a good comparison. Mitchell was an assistant at the Eagles when they won a flag, he then returned to Hawthorn as a development coach, and then coached Box Hill and built such a connection with the players in that short time that it was the youngsters that he was coaching there who agitated for the Clarkson succession plan to be scuttled. Buckley was anointed on his club status, alone.

So you don't see the parallels, right down to the awkward succession plans between Buckley and Mitchell, essentially because Mitchell had a cup of coffee at West Coast?

I can't remember anyone being fast tracked like that to a senior position unless they've been a club legend. Which is all well and good and maybe Mitchell bucks the trend, because it mostly seems to end in tears.

 

[Doashuey]

Hawks won't win a game next season. By far the worst list in the AFL and probably the worst midfield ever in the AFL era.

Mate WC fielded a team with 4 non AFL listed players this year. One of which was informed in the elevator at the ground that he would be playing. They then were presented with their jumpers on the ground, complete with coathangers.
They then almost beat North....
So no, Hawks 2023 won't be the worst list or midfield ever- that would still be North 22.

 

[fnerd]

There is also a consensus that Lloyd Meek would have been a number 1 ruck if he wasn't stuck behind Sean Darcy. 8 clubs asked the question about him and he chose us.

Bahahaha, big footy in a nutshell right here.

After couple weeks of swearing black and blue that meek was nothing but a back up ruck who “might” get a game but is categorically behind the great Ned reeves,now he’s actually been traded in ,hawks supporters now happily mentioning Meeks no 1 ruck material.

 

[caveman72]

If they rate Mitchell so highly wonder why he got such a hospital handpass? They could have done this last year and had Clarko ride the bumps this year.

Mitchell couldn't wait though right?

Mitchell comes across as the type of bloke who would knock his Nanna out of the way to get the last slice of Pizza. It's going to be an interesting few years for the Hawks. If it all turns pear-shaped they might be all bunking with Tazhawk in his mums basement.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Lol, precious. I’m pretty happy with our trade period so far, hoping we can maximise our draft hand by packaging a few of our later picks.

You can hate Hawthorn all you want, just stay off twitter eh?

Just because I think Hawthorn will be rubbish for the next 5 years, doesn't mean i hate your club. Tbh, along with North Melbourne, Hawthorn are the Vic clubs I don't mind the least (I have an inexplicable hate for The Bulldogs for some reason)

You guys have not yet come close to bottoming out yet, the worst is yet to come, trust me

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Mitchell comes across as the type of bloke who would knock his Nanna out of the way to get the last slice of Pizza. It's going to be an interesting few years for the Hawks. If it all turns pear-shaped they might be all bunking with Tazhawk in his mums basement.

Nah Mitchell is a very smart football person, and the Hawks did the right thing replacing a cooked Clarkson with him when they did.

I just hope the Hawks board and supporters give him the time and patience to rebuild their list, at a minimum they are 4 years away from challenging for finals again, and that's if they nail most of their draft and trade periods in that time period.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Just because I think Hawthorn will be rubbish for the next 5 years, doesn't mean i hate your club. Tbh, along with North Melbourne, Hawthorn are the Vic clubs I don't mind the least (I have an inexplicable hate for The Bulldogs for some reason)

You guys have not yet come close to bottoming out yet, the worst is yet to come, trust me

Nah, we’ll be fine, we’ll win a similar number games, maybe slightly less.

You do have a very strange obsession with Hawthorn. You should spend less time on here, trust me.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Nah, we’ll be fine, we’ll win a similar number games, maybe slightly less.

You do have a very strange obsession with Hawthorn. You should spend less time on here, trust me.

Was accused of the same thing from Richmond supporters tbh

But I agree that I spend way too much time on this forum !

 

[caveman72]

Nah Mitchell is a very smart football person, and the Hawks did the right thing replacing a cooked Clarkson with him when they did.

I just hope the Hawks board and supporters give him the time and patience to rebuild their list, at a minimum they are 4 years away from challenging for finals again, and that's if they nail most of their draft and trade periods in that time period.

Lots of smart footy people have gone onto coach, but not all have been successful. I find it interesting how when he started coaching Box Hill the young blokes suddenly weren't fans of the so-called greatest coach of the modern era. Will be interesting if they don't show signs of improvement how long before the natives get restless and start to eat their own.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Lots of smart footy people have gone onto coach, but not all have been successful. I find it interesting how when he started coaching Box Hill the young blokes suddenly weren't fans of the so-called greatest coach of the modern era. Will be interesting if they don't show signs of improvement how long before the natives get restless and start to eat their own.

Some people at the Eagles believe he was the brains trust of their 2018 premiership.

Also he got a couple of wins against a couple more seasoned finals coaches in Hinkley and Fagan .

All he needs is time, Hawthorn (board and players) need to give him a solid 5 year slate and he will get them up and about again.

Clarkson and Graham Wright did wonders for the Hawthorn Footy Club, but made some really poor recruiting and trading decisions after the 2015 flag, which may have seemed right at the time, but ultimately was not sustainable for medium-long term success.

I hate saying this, but Hawthorn have been the ultimate role model for stability and success since the late 60s, who would you honestly back to make a grand final in from here, Hawthorn or St Kilda?
As long as he given time, Mitchell will be have the Hawks playing finals/contending again, although maybe a bit longer than many HFC fans hope or think.

 

[Upgrayedd]

So you don't see the parallels, right down to the awkward succession plans between Buckley and Mitchell, essentially because Mitchell had a cup of coffee at West Coast?

I can't remember anyone being fast tracked like that to a senior position unless they've been a club legend. Which is all well and good and maybe Mitchell bucks the trend, because it mostly seems to end in tears.

Yes/No

One reason Mitchell went over to the West is to coach, I know he played for a year but he was also in a coaching capacity over here in that 2017 in his last year before becoming an official assistant in 2018, he actually left money on the table to come back to Melbourne and left some money on the table as well to go back to hawthorn as an assistant

We also know Mitchell did have offers and was on the short list to coach some other teams (Collingwood) which caused us to kind of do that awkward coaching changeover plan, As Clarkson had become a bit stale and there was obvious friction on his future,

I dont think it runs its course to Buckley who was put in as an assistant to one day ultimately become the head coach, I think Mitchell everything aligned over Buckley who had the clear path (Not the wrong decision either as he was pretty close to snagging a premiership in his coaching career as well)

 

[Khmerhawk]

And if Hawthorn don't win a flag in the 2020's I can guarantee there will be no Hawthorn supporters

Did you think up the name captain bender by yourself or is it just something people have been calling you all your life ?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

So you don't see the parallels, right down to the awkward succession plans between Buckley and Mitchell, essentially because Mitchell had a cup of coffee at West Coast?

I can't remember anyone being fast tracked like that to a senior position unless they've been a club legend. Which is all well and good and maybe Mitchell bucks the trend, because it mostly seems to end in tears.

No I don’t see the parallels because of a number of reasons.
Buckley never coached his own side and never coached anywhere else.
Buckley was put into the succession plan by his president, while the club was still contending for flags.

Sam Mitchell was an assistant at West Coast, won a flag and was about to be headhunted for a senior coaching role at Collingwood.
Clarkson had Hawthorn tumbling around the bottom 4 for the second year in a row after some failed top ups, and the club could see a new direction needed to be taken.

Mitchell was fast tracked into the role on the back of the work he’d done with the Box Hill side, the development he’d fostered within the group in a short time and the amount of players who’d stated that he was the reason that they’d started playing decent football.

 

[kozi]

Inb4 Can Hawthorn succeed while being banned from the elite end of the draft

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Yes/No

One reason Mitchell went over to the West is to coach, I know he played for a year but he was also in a coaching capacity over here in that 2017 in his last year before becoming an official assistant in 2018, he actually left money on the table to come back to Melbourne and left some money on the table as well to go back to hawthorn as an assistant

We also know Mitchell did have offers and was on the short list to coach some other teams (Collingwood) which caused us to kind of do that awkward coaching changeover plan, As Clarkson had become a bit stale and there was obvious friction on his future,

I dont think it runs its course to Buckley who was put in as an assistant to one day ultimately become the head coach, I think Mitchell everything aligned over Buckley who had the clear path (Not the wrong decision either as he was pretty close to snagging a premiership in his coaching career as well)

But that's another parallel with Buckley. If I recall correctly, they were forced to do something to keep Buckley sweet because North wanted him as senior coach, which is how the whole succession plan came about. And Malthouse took the concept about as well as Clarkson did.

 

[Grin]

Literally no club in the comp is ever 7 years away from finals, and it amazes me that people throw this sort of hyperbole out there when we continually see teams climb from the bottom rungs to finals in 3 and 4 years.


Brisbane spoon 2017 - top 4 2020
St Kilda 16th in 2018 - finals 2020
Sydney 16th in 2020 - grand finalists 2022
Collingwood 17th in 2021 - prelim finalists 2022

Or, going back further, when Richmond sacked Kevin Bartlett in 1992, jettisoned lots of experience and made the finals in 1995, and then went on win 3 premierships less than 30 years later

 

[Grin]

The OP doesn't understand that there's a difference between tanking and bottoming out. Although I do agree with him that clubs like Hawthorn and West Coast should cop massive fines, and the proceeds forwarded to successful, well run clubs like Geelong and Richmond to discourage this sort of strategy and to even up the comp.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Bahahaha, big footy in a nutshell right here.

After couple weeks of swearing black and blue that meek was nothing but a back up ruck who “might” get a game but is categorically behind the great Ned reeves,now he’s actually been traded in ,hawks supporters now happily mentioning Meeks no 1 ruck material.

Some Hawthorn fans suggested he'd come in and be behind Reeves.

The reality is that we'll likely play two rucks and Meek is every chance of playing a full season of football.

There was also some discrediting of Ned Reeves by Freo supporters in that thread by people who clearly haven't watched him play enough.

 

[Red mist]

Think there's a difference between rebuilding and tanking.

Making list management decisions that preference the future over the now is merely a list management strategy. This is what Hawthorn appears to have done. Not without its risks either, can sometimes take 3-5 years to discover if your horde of draftees have what it takes, and if not then another rebuild beckons.

But tanking to me is making deliberate in game/pre-game decisions that undermine trying to win that weekend's match. So long as Hawthorn try and field sides close to their possible best, however weak that best may turn out to be. Then all okay by me.

At least you can interpret a definition of what tanking is.

Gil refused to define it when chairing the investigation in Melbourne 2009. Not doing so guaranteed further investments from Gambling organisations into the AFL and Melbournes revenue. Don’t want match fixing to muddy the water..

Fining Melbourne half a million and banning Football manager Chris Connolly for 12 months, Coach at the time Dean Bailey for 6 months. For bringing the game into disrepute.
Cameron Schwab was left untouched though.

 

[pz5151]

It’s not tanking to remove your top end talent. Tanking means to deliberately lose games, which we haven’t seen any evidence of hint of from Hawthorn and I would be very surprised if we did from a Sam Mitchell led team.

It is unwise however. When you develop a losing culture, it is very hard to break out of. Carlton on paper are a top 4 team but that culture of winning hasn’t been developed yet.

North Melbourne destroyed themselves with this strategy also by getting rid of all their experience. Kids need talented and experienced older players to set the standards on the training track, on the field and also to protect them from being dominated through having to face the best opposition players each week and to avoid them being mentally broken through constant thumpings.

 

[West Tiger]

I think Sam Mitchell is great, and if Hawthorn are tanking I got no problem with it, it's up to us gamblers to not bet on Hawthorn if we think they're tanking, it's as simple as that.

My advice to gamblers though is, throw a little something on Hawthorn when they play the good teams because that's when they come to play.

 

[Free Agent]

Normally I'd be annoyed about clubs tanking but this times I'm ok with it as the AFL refuse to do anything about equalisation through the comp by letting free agency and players way to much control that clubs like Geelong keep getting ridiculous advantages. Basically it's pretty hypocritical to argue a clubs tanking when there already so much corruption happening with drafting and free agency. Geelong getting Bowes and pick 7 in a way is draft tampering itself. So on this occasion I say Hawks tank and tank to your heart's content

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Having watched enough Hawthorn games live, one thing you might not pick up watching on TV is just how defensively abysmal our midfield was. Neither Mitchell or O'Meara are our top midfielders anymore (both Newcombe and Moore performed way better in the b&f - even Maginness was snapping at Mitchell and O'Meara's heels) and both Mitchell and O'Meara would have been pushed further down the pecking order if guys like Lewis and Jiath had played full seasons. We couldn't afford to keep both of them there and if that means a re-bore of the midfield then good. How this could be construed as tanking is beyond me.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

Bahahaha, big footy in a nutshell right here.

After couple weeks of swearing black and blue that meek was nothing but a back up ruck who “might” get a game but is categorically behind the great Ned reeves,now he’s actually been traded in ,hawks supporters now happily mentioning Meeks no 1 ruck material.

Yes. All Hawthorn supporters are one big hive mind.