Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[cleveland]

That's the one joy of living in NSW, I don't have to hear about it when we lose

My facebook wall lit up lol

 

[timtamWB]

Igloo we can't vote on the poll if it's a locked thread.

 

[Igloo]

Igloo we can't vote on the poll if it's a locked thread.

Ok, I'll fix it up.

 

[cleveland]

Just give anyone a yellow that posts on it

 

[DylanW]

Just give anyone a yellow that posts on it

No Igloo we aren't the same person. Great minds think alike

 

[Some Idiot]

I'm starting to lean towards getting a new head coach and keeping Macca as a development coach, can't see it happening though.

 

[Igloo]

Just give anyone a yellow that posts on it

I wont go that extreme . Deletions will be fine.

 

[timtamWB]

I'm starting to lean towards getting a new head coach and keeping Macca as a development coach, can't see it happening though.

Yep I heard this idea in this thread not long ago and thought it wasn't too bad. I think a lot will hang on how we go next week. How the young guys play, the result, and whether we come out breathing fire or not. Big week for the club.

 

[DylanW]

I'm starting to lean towards getting a new head coach and keeping Macca as a development coach, can't see it happening though.

Even giving Macca a pastoral role might be a good idea, more as a person the young players can approach and talk to issues about along with coaching duties. You would think teaching would have been ideal preparation for this

 

[Werewolf]

I'm starting to lean towards getting a new head coach and keeping Macca as a development coach, can't see it happening though.

Yeah I'd agree with that. We've got a fair bit of young talent on the list, sure not all of them will make it in the AFL, but Macca isn't getting the best out the squad. Geelong folk insist he did a great job in the development aspect, so he does have a place in a football department, just not at the top.

 

[Master Coach]

As I mentioned a few times this year ...certainly Mac should continue his development work. There is no question of that. He is a great acquisition for the juniors in our club. The next obvious step is to compliment his work by signing a Senior Head Coach or Director of Coaching with proven match-day/game tactical experience. I suggest we should start looking now and make the appointment by years end before the kids learn how to accept defeat and learn too many bad habits (which they obviously already have begun)...

As mentioned by a few posters here ..-we also need to get the mongrel back and what Macca himself claimed he could make when he first signed on -a team that would intimidate the opposition.. That my brothers...seems a long way off...

 

[_M_16_]

I love how people are attacking his game plan. But who honestly actually KNOWS what it is, than making assumptions by what they see on TV?

Macca said during the press conference that he was disappointed that it took until the last quarter to play that way, and that it took that long for some of our senior players to step up and do something. Ryan Griffen went out to echo the same thing, that it took until the last quarter to play the way they wanted to. Which is pretty much clear as day, that the last quarter was the way Macca wanted us to play from the first bounce. The problem was the players, and a dysfunctional forward line to why it didn't happen.

 

[Master Coach]

I love how people are attacking his game plan. But who honestly actually KNOWS what it is, than making assumptions by what they see on TV?

Macca said during the press conference that he was disappointed that it took until the last quarter to play that way, and that it took that long for some of our senior players to step up and do something. Ryan Griffen went out to echo the same thing, that it took until the last quarter to play the way they wanted to. Which is pretty much clear as day, that the last quarter was the way Macca wanted us to play from the first bounce. The problem was the players, and a dysfunctional forward line to why it didn't happen.

Why? Because the team has already developed bad habits, attitude and lack of belief. This is a coaching problem..

 

[_Mike_]

The problem was the players, and a dysfunctional forward line to why it didn't happen.

When he persists with playing out of position (Cooney on the backline, Dahlhaus in the centre etc) you cant expect players to find confidence to lift their game.

Either McCartney cant see the flaws behind his plan or he's blind to the true abilities of certain players

 

[Nath09]

Really?

Remove your rose coloured glasses. What really matters is results on field and that's currently an abject failure.

If you not already one, I suggest a career in PR because that's some world class spin.

I'm talking about the off-field direction of the club, mate. Building a coaching department, the kids they draft, the PR they implement - not necessarily about wins or losses this year. You're the one who is saying "on field results are what matters". I don't think the short term results matter, whether we end up with 7 wins or 5. What I'm talking about is the off-field direction the club is moving in. If you want to make it about results that's fine but you're the one spinning my post. Our on-field performance, particularly against Melbourne isn't relevant - it's a different discussion.

 

[Dogs Rule]

I'm talking about the off-field direction of the club, mate. Building a coaching department, the kids they draft, the PR they implement - not necessarily about wins or losses this year. You're the one who is saying "on field results are what matters". I don't think the short term results matter, whether we end up with 7 wins or 5. What I'm talking about is the off-field direction the club is moving in. If you want to make it about results that's fine but you're the one spinning my post. Our on-field performance, particularly against Melbourne isn't relevant - it's a different discussion.

With our finances, low membership and supporter base, we're always fighting an uphill battle, so on-field results do matter.

On-field results affect off-field results. So, if we continue to perform so poorly on-field, we'll attract fewer members, fewer sponsors, bigger losses and be less attractive for current players and for players looking for new homes.

So, we can have the greatest off-field set up in the history of the AFL, but if it doesn't help deliver on-field, it means nothing.

 

[Nath09]

With our finances, low membership and supporter base, we're always fighting an uphill battle, so on-field results do matter.

On-field results affect off-field results. So, if we continue to perform so poorly on-field, we'll attract fewer members, fewer sponsors, bigger losses and be less attractive for current players and for players looking for new homes.

So, we can have the greatest off-field set up in the history of the AFL, but if it doesn't help deliver on-field, it means nothing.

Sure but isn't it absurd to think that after three prelims in a row we wouldn't bottom out at some stage? It's not as though we've been shit or mediocre for years and years on end.

My point is, a good off-field set up WILL help to deliver results on-field. To think that delivery would come in 18 months is a bit short sighted.

To deny that we have any long term plan, as a few posters on here have done outright, simply because we had a bad loss last night, is foolish to say the least.

 

[Anja_Nees]

I'm not aware of one occasion in history where an AFL coach has happily stood down to a lesser role and let someone else take the reigns. It won't happen. If McCartney goes then he goes entirely. I see no point in appointing a senior mentor when he enters his third season as a head coach after ten years as an assistant.

I hope that last night was a severe lapse in concentration and that we will bounce back strongly. The reality is though that his win/loss is deplorable and, whereas you could previously say the players appeared to be playing for him, the reality last night was that the effort was hopeless for three quarters. My Melbourne mates commented on how stagnant we looked. No one was running. If we bounce back and give spirited performances for the rest of the year (and flog GWS and Melbourne) then I won't have a problem with him starting next year. I think on all available evidence so far, however, he is struggling and if it weren't for Voss' issues and the fact GWS and Melbourne have been so abnormally awful I would think he would have been tipped out already.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Sure but isn't it absurd to think that after three prelims in a row we wouldn't bottom out at some stage? It's not as though we've been shit or mediocre for years and years on end.

My point is, a good off-field set up WILL help to deliver results on-field. To think that delivery would come in 18 months is a bit short sighted.

To deny that we have any long term plan, as a few posters on here have done outright, simply because we had a bad loss last night, is foolish to say the least.

Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn and Sydney all played finals around the same time as our run of prelims. None have fallen in a heap the way we have. The Saints have (though it happened more slowly). It wasnt a given that we would be as hopeless as we have been. I expected we would drop out of the eight. I didn't expect us to be this uncompetitive. Some of it was poor list management but the 2008 and 2010 drafts weren't all that bad and we still have some reasonable senior players. It's not as simple as what goes up must come down.

 

[JJHunter]

I often come back to this post to see whats going around and its the same old same old. Boring opinions with little substance as to why you think the guy is a bad coach - You cannot mention Howard or Grant in this post - macca was not at the club in those years and simply cannot be blamed for them not coming on - cause in my opinion they were pretty ordinary before he got there - Yes grant has gone backwards but that is simply cause he doesn't have a barry hall and other guns to play off down fwd. No Maccas fault either. Look at the recruiting / development before he got there.

I have always said his position needs to be closely looked at come end of year. I mean 1 loss to Melbourne I'm struggling to accept but 2 losses to Melbourne in a year and something would need to change IMO. I also do not see a good enough candidate to step right in that wouldn't come with his own problems.

But what I hate about this post is all the people who just want him gone - start talking footy people - tell us why you want him gone and where in the area of coaching have we fallen behind. I mean for someone to suggest they want Gia as coach probably based on a 2 minute channel 7 package of him screaming stuff from the sidelines is laughable.

Then there are the ultimate optimists who reckon we can play finals in 2015 - Do these people think other clubs list stay frozen in time and other teams lists are not going to improve? To think we are going to jump 8 other clubs, and have Melb, GWS, not improve at similar rates is a head scratcher for me.

So the reasons in no particular order as to why I am down on McCartney as coach are the following...... (and most of these will not change even after we beat GWS this week...

1) Playing Cooney for example as a half back - who gets pushed deep by opposition is a waste. The guy finally gets some element of fitness and he is playing out of defensive 50. a guy who has been an attacking midfielder with a great sense for a goal is playing in defensive 50 in the twilight of his career - you cannot teach an old dog those sort of tricks. We have seen in the last two weeks when he has played out of the middle or off a wing he has been far more damaging.

2) Gia as the Sub - I posted some stats last week that showed our quarter win/loss ratio when Gia has been the sub - before this week I think as a team we had only lost 1 quarter when he was on the ground in the last month as sub and it was by under a goal.
Now the weekend when he didnt start as sub didnt result in team success but Macca admitted himself that we had 1 forward for three quarters and he was it. Like it or not he is still our best forward having kicked the most goals for us and him only playing a quarter in alot of the recent games in my opinion has been wasted. What so he can coach the guys coming to the bench ?? What about on field leadership ?? who has been running the fwd line when Murphy has been down back in recent weeks ??

3) Kicking efficiency
A role of a coach is to develop the team - we were told all preseason that kicking and quality ball use was a key focus - they had coaches writing down kicking inefficiencies at training and running into players the importance of quality ball use. Well we have come out this year and stunk it up being the worst in the comp - worse than last year even = that has to say there is a failure in coaching and or personal. Alot of the personal will poor ball use have been brought to the club under mccartneys watch so he has to take some ownership of that and ownership of the fact that whatever coaching methods he used to try and improve disposal have not worked.

4) Game Style - Clearances
Some of the stats and figures produced by champion data (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-06-28/the-clearances-conundrum) are just telling in the misreading of how McCartney has been putting this team together from the inside out. People can argue that the contested inside footy wins you finals - but Id love to think we would get there in the next 5 years - currently I cannot see it. And besides look at the clearance rankings of the last 10 grand final winners in that stat !!!
To interupt these figures for those who cannot be bothered - we win the clearances by a large number and across the year rank 4th in contested counts when taking the differential from week to week. Yet we are bottom two in scores from clearances and the one that I love they can produce is Effective clearances. The figures say we lose effective clearances most weeks.

That just backs up what I have thought all along - We have been trained to win the clearance and that is about it - there are no systems around the ball that the coach has put in place to make them effective - there are none that have been put in place that generate scores from the clearance. We even lose inside 50 counts in games we smash clearances in purely because we cannot take it away effectively. again a coaching issue IMO.

5) Game Style - Uncontested disposal
Now this is different to clearances - uncontested disposal shows the teams ability to be able to spread and make itself dangerous. I just don't see anyone in our side that is good on the spread. Whether its a limitation of current one paced personal I am not sure - if it is then macca cannot be entirely blamed but he continues to tow the line that its not that important. Big ticks to him for dropping Crossy cause of leg speed more then anything but he was actually one I thought used to spread well. Go to a swans game and watch their mids closely - its incredible the way they spread from a contest and offer other options - our blokes just don't do it. People bagged Eagleton when he played but that is what he was great at. You need these blokes for good ball movement.

6) Defensive Turnovers
Looking at analysis we rank in the bottom few too for goals from turn overs - so our ability to pressure the opposition into making mistake also has not improved - I do not see much being done to improve this area yet it was well known when the pies started it 3 years ago this is where the game was going. Our scores and rankings for keeping the ball inside our attack are bottom 3 also. Why wouldnt a coach in todays game make that a higher focus or work better on strategies to achieve the better result.

-------------------------------------------
Thats just a few - there are always alot of small things - like starting Hunter as sub this week that I disgaree with but certainly not something id want a guy sacked for.
People say be patient but in regards to point 3-6 we have no no improvements on in Maccas time - we have gone backwards and the philosophies of our current coach do not help that as he has made it clear he is not about that as a coach.

He really need to focus and give more importance to these areas - otherwise I'm sorry to say but we need to look around for a coach who will.

 

[footyfan000001]

I like McCartney a lot but there are a few things starting to worry me about him. I will still back him in any day of the week but a few creases need to be ironed out.
1) Game day coaching tactics - example of this - no tag on Jones in first half on the weekend. Do we need some one more experienced sitting beside him? Cooney at half back is not working in our favour at all. Macca maybe just needs more experience personally I dunno?
2) Too much emphasis on contested footy - we need some outside run with good skills. Our mids are so slow.
3) Too much positivity - the players should have copped a huge spray on the weekend - especially half time and there should be a few dropped for this week but doubt it will happen.

 

[JJHunter]

3) Too much positivity - the players should have copped a huge spray on the weekend - especially half time and there should be a few dropped for this week but doubt it will happen.

Great point

 

[cleveland]

Makes me cringe he has another year on his contract......out coached by a caretaker

Great point

 

[Nath09]

Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn and Sydney all played finals around the same time as our run of prelims. None have fallen in a heap the way we have. The Saints have (though it happened more slowly). It wasnt a given that we would be as hopeless as we have been. I expected we would drop out of the eight. I didn't expect us to be this uncompetitive. Some of it was poor list management but the 2008 and 2010 drafts weren't all that bad and we still have some reasonable senior players. It's not as simple as what goes up must come down.

Consider the club's financial situation compared to those teams. We are far from the Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn or Sydneys of the leaugue. If you'd like I could go through the last 15 year histories of each of those clubs and show you how they've had their rebuilding phases too (bar maybe Sydney who are propped up by the AFL). Plenty of supporters lost faith in Malthouse, Thompson and Clarkson during their tenures too. Not saying it will work for McCartney but to say that our trajectory compared to those teams is that much different is just not true. The draft also wasn't compromised when those clubs rebuilt.

You also mentioned poor drafting, of course this effects the makeup of the team. Before the past 18 months we probably had one of the most underdeveloped recruiting departments in the league - we simply couldn't afford one. If we had a more even spread of players, our team would look differently right now. Our list is very poor and we're in this for the long haul.

It's not as simple as other clubs have done better than us therefore McCartney should be sacked...

 

[BRG93]

All I'll will say is I'm happy for him to see out the remainder of his contract and if there is no improvement then the appropriate course of action should then be taken, sacking him now would just be stupid