Autopsy Round 9 = Collingwood 51-99 Western Bulldogs

[stormskye]

Which young player, outside of Ginnivan, has helped us win games this year?

We're being carried by Moore Crisp De Goey Adams Mihocek Lipinkski Noble Pendlebury Sidebottom ect.

Why is bottoming out a bad thing exactly? Richmond and Melbourne, the two most recent premiers, both bottomed out.... So maybe.. it's a good thing??

Daicos kid goes ok. But I agree

 

[Maggie5]

No we aren't, being better than Friday night is not the end game though.

Not the end game but losing like we have this year is certainly not on the right path either

We're last on the development train in the comp, not to mention the past failings that got us into the position we're in, these results like Friday should be expected. And our optimistic expectations should be tempered.

I think that is what most thought of our team when Tony Shaw was coaching as well, yet those players became a foundation for success.

The past is the past, I look at what we have, how they can be developed and a coach knowing what to do with what he has.

I don't see an issue with optimism week to week, not just for a win but to see the team develop otherwise why would anyone support a sporting team?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Daicos kid goes ok. But I agree

They both do.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Not the end game but losing like we have this year is certainly not on the right path either


I think that is what most thought of our team when Tony Shaw was coaching as well, yet those players became a foundation for success.

The past is the past, I look at what we have, how they can be developed and a coach knowing what to do with what he has.

I don't see an issue with optimism week to week, not just for a win but to see the team develop otherwise why would anyone support a sporting team?

I think you're misreading my posts, I'm not really concerned about results, but how our game develops. That is certainly on the right track. Still it has a ceiling given our list profile (the past that got us here) < that is what I'm replying / explaining to posters who lament 'we'll never be the dees if (or equivalent)' That ceiling is a miracle flag pinch - not a sustained success team.

Maybe you should ask no spin about his / her passion / support for the club.

 

[sr36]

I guess I'm just pointing out that to other posters who are bemoaning 'we'll never be the dees if..................' we'll never be the dees in this cycle > period<, as you've pointed out.

That's a result of past individuals no longer at the club and now the club is paying for it and will for some time. Over the railway line the enemy had a dynasty.

Now the competition looks to have another dynasty team, that's not a given but given themselves every chance. The opposite of what we've done.

Given the age of that awesome midfield, and the completeness of their list, it's not a given that they'll win a brace of premierships, because that can just come down to a lucky day, but it's pretty much a given that they're going to be at the pointy end for as long as the recent dynasty teams were.

 

[Maggie5]

I think you're misreading my posts, I'm not really concerned about results, but how our game develops. That is certainly on the right track. Still it has a ceiling given our list profile (the past that got us here) < that is what I'm replying / explaining to posters who lament 'we'll never be the dees if (or equivalent)' That ceiling is a miracle flag pinch - not a sustained success team.

Maybe you should ask no spin about his / her passion / support for the club.

Think you are misreading my posts as well as I am concerned about the result and I don't think the young players learned much from the Geelong/WC/WB games. I get that we lose because the other team is better, it is to be expected but not the way we lose.

The dees situation is not a factor for me as I posted what their team is made up of and the fact that they also tanked. I don't want to us to tank.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Given the age of that awesome midfield, and the completeness of their list, it's not a given that they'll win a brace of premierships, because that can just come down to a lucky day, but it's pretty much a given that they're going to be at the pointy end for as long as the recent dynasty teams were.

Yep, pretty much the opposite to where we're at.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Think you are misreading my posts as well as I am concerned about the result and I don't think the young players learned much from the Geelong/WC/WB games. I get that we lose because the other team is better, it is to be expected but not the way we lose.

The dees situation is not a factor for me as I posted what their team is made up of and the fact that they also tanked. I don't want to us to tank.

Yes I know you are, but you need to take into account we're 9 games into a new game plan with a new coaching panel, footy department and prez. You need to temper your expectations. Most important thing >at this stage< is game development, because that's all we've got - don't concern yourself with results, they'll come later. So long as the optimism in the game is there (which it seem it is).

*Just remember, because of our list shemozzle, system can only take us so far. A lucky flag hopefully.

We're not a North who have reason to have unhealthy confidence levels, if that's what you're alluding to re results.

*And yes the reason why we'll have less than ideal games / losses IS because of the past, it's how we got here in the first place.

The dees position is not a factor for me either, again that's me replying to other posters that lament we won't become that team or equivalent.

 

[Maggie5]

Yes I know you are, but you need to take into account we're 9 games into a new game plan with a new coaching panel, footy department and prez.

9 games in and I am not confident of the four things you mentioned. That is more disheartening to me than the personnel we have.

I am hoping that even with a tough run ahead of us there is some change, because I don't think with the players we have our manic style football will win too many games if we loose the ability to defend or make in game changes.

 

[sr36]

Yep, pretty much the opposite to where we're at.

They've done really well. Their build has been the opposite of what this board advocates in terms of the order and how to get various player types.

2012 - they got Viney as a F.S
2014 - drafted Petracca and Brayshaw
2015 - Oliver
They already had Gawn.

By 2018 it was obvious that they had a sensational young midfield and they then were able to focus on filling out the rest of the ground. Trading in May and Lever were massively winning plays for them.

There's your time frame for building a great team - about 7 years from getting key pieces, if you're lucky - Cats followed a similar time frame who also built through getting their mids early. Mids might play seniors early, but it usually takes them just as long to be dominant enough to lead a team to a flag. There's no 3 year bounce when building through the draft. And no team has recently built a dynasty team without beginning in the draft. We're in for a wait. Just got to hope we can add as many pieces around Nick Daicos as we can and enjoy the journey without worrying too much about the destination at this stage.

 

[JLC]

Dogs have been rubbish for most of the season. Yet against us, look amazing. They have injuries but their list is much better equipped. They actually have multiple ruckman. They have mids with decent foot skills. They still have two potential very very good players in Darcy / JUH still to develop.

We have a few players that are not that good and don’t really have a position. Some of these players don’t even have one elite attribute. Really makes you wonder why they are still on our list.

1. Begg is not ready yet. Not his fault. It a result of our poor list.

2. McCreery - needs to do more. Even the week before his finishing skills are poor. Zero tackles this week.

3. Callum Brown - officially a joke. Never again.

4. WHE - a neat game but ffs we need more. Actually dominate a game. Move on.

5. De Goey - Too quiet early on.

6. Maynard - 7 turnovers

7. Lipinski - 6 turnovers

8. Tyler Brown

21

Tyler Brown

Age

25

Ht

192cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.0

3star

K

4.0

2star

HB

7.0

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.4

3star

CL

0.6

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

4.0

1star

HB

7.0

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.4

2star

CL

0.6

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

4.0

2star

HB

7.0

5star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.4

4star

CL

0.6

3star

- tackles but what else does he bring?


Then there is also -

Bianco - what is his actual position?
Will Kelly

20

Will Kelly

Age

24

Ht

194cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

5.0

1star

K

4.0

2star

HB

1.0

1star

M

2.0

2star

T

0.0

1star

MG

108.0

2star

D

5.0

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

1.0

1star

M

2.0

2star

T

0.0

1star

MG

108.0

2star

D

5.0

1star

K

4.0

2star

HB

1.0

2star

M

2.0

3star

T

0.0

1star

MG

108.0

2star

- what is he?
Cox - vfl player these days. Will return to seniors out of desperation

Hine / Guy imo has been really poor. Hine completely butchered I think it was 2015, 2016, 2017 drafts. Only long term player is Josh Daicos

7

Josh Daicos

Age

26

Ht

178cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.6

4star

K

8.3

3star

HB

7.3

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.6

5star

CL

1.3

3star

D

16.2

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.5

4star

CL

1.5

4star

D

13.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

1.2

4star

.

Hopefully McRae is getting a fair idea of who can be of use for his game plan going forward. I see only a handful that are capable.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Hine / Guy imo has been really poor. Hine completely butchered I think it was 2015, 2016, 2017 drafts. Only long term player is Josh Daicos.

Yes and also butchering the Beams trade to give away first round picks, Treloar trade, Grundy's over the top contract, Aish, then Freeman, Scharenburg and Stephenson being complete busts, Its actually a miracle Pies are not as bad as Eagles.

It's beyond me a club so big can be so consistently poor at drafting and list management.

 

[No SPIN]

Which young player, outside of Ginnivan, has helped us win games this year?

We're being carried by Moore Crisp De Goey Adams Mihocek Lipinkski Noble Pendlebury Sidebottom ect.

Why is bottoming out a bad thing exactly? Richmond and Melbourne, the two most recent premiers, both bottomed out.... So maybe.. it's a good thing??

Remember we are talking about end of year finishing position, so the kids that improve enough to make us end at mid table are unknown at this time.

 

[NMBB]

Yes and also butchering the Beams trade to give away first round picks, Treloar trade, Grundy's over the top contract, Aish, then Freeman, Scharenburg and Stephenson being complete busts, Its actually a miracle Pies are not as bad as Eagles.

It's beyond me a club so big can be so consistently poor at drafting and list management.

Clearly size does NOT matter in this regard - Beams trade? - thank the previous president.

Freeman / Scharenberg - bad luck mainly - but we must stop blaming luck for the rest of our previous sh*teness in this regard

"Its actually a miracle Pies are not as bad as Eagles." - they beat us this year

 

[sr36]

Hine / Guy imo has been really poor. Hine completely butchered I think it was 2015, 2016, 2017 drafts. Only long term player is Josh Daicos.

Between 2015-2019 all we got from the draft was IQ, Daicos and Noble, with Ruscoe, Tyler and Bianco outside chances still.

Of the 3 hits, one was an academy gift and another a father son.

 

[Carringbush2010]

9 games in and I am not confident of the four things you mentioned. That is more disheartening to me than the personnel we have.

I am hoping that even with a tough run ahead of us there is some change, because I don't think with the players we have our manic style football will win too many games if we loose the ability to defend or make in game changes.

I understand your sentiment and it is shared among many.

I also agree with you in finding balance in our game i:e change when needed.

In saying that, what we have now is not a finished product, it's not like we can only play manic football. I'm more than certain Fly and co know this and are working towards it. All of that takes time for the squad and panel to get on the same page to execute ideal game.

In other words, patience grasshopper, it's a development year (or two) for both game and player.

List is another matter entirely and is not in our favour.

 

[Maggie5]

I understand your sentiment and it is shared among many.

I also agree with you in finding balance in our game i:e change when needed.

In saying that, what we have now is not a finished product, it's not like we can only play manic football. I'm more than certain Fly and co know this and are working towards it. All of that takes time for the squad and panel to get on the same page to execute ideal game.

In other words, patience grasshopper, it's a development year (or two) for both game and player.

List is another matter entirely and is not in our favour.

Patience I have right now but now sure for how long. I was reminded of the saying 'Do something' on Friday.

Actually I don't like the saying 'development year', think it is just an excuse.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Just got to hope we can add as many pieces around Nick Daicos as we can and enjoy the journey without worrying too much about the destination at this stage.

I agree with your post entirely, and as I mentioned 'the melb thing' is in reply to others on here lamenting we'll never be them. That's a 'well duh' of course we won't - regardless. Not in the cycle of our mid age pieces anyway.

This sentence you have here is the reality check many on here need to acknowledge. Enjoy whatever wins we get and enjoy watching Naicos, coz as far as the end game goes well that hope is pretty slim. It's almost a forget about it.

Just hope and pray the enemies don't flag before us, which is even slimmer - so yeah not much joy for us pies anytime soon.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Patience I have right now but now sure for how long. I was reminded of the saying 'Do something' on Friday.

Actually I don't like the saying 'development year', think it is just an excuse.

Ok then.

Stark reality check Maggie. Previous administration at the club have put us in a draft hole and have made trading blunders and back ended contracts that have got us to this position.

We will not be able to rely on list (or trade ourselves out of it).

This is what I meant when I've said 'reap what you sew Collingwood'. I brought this up at the end of 20 about 2020 and the previous self foot shootings

The only thing we have left is to build game system with what we've got and what we can hopefully get personnel wise.

So 'development' is not an excuse, it's a changing of game style, and FD - that takes time to 'develop', that's an unfortunate reality. Your patience will be tested - buckle up.

 

[Maggie5]

Ok then.

Stark reality check Maggie. Previous administration at the club have put us in a draft hole and have made trading blunders and back ended contracts that have got us to this position.

We will not be able to rely on list (or trade ourselves out of it).

This is what I meant when I've said 'reap what you sew Collingwood'. I brought this up at the end of 20 about 2020 and the previous self foot shootings

The only thing we have left is to build game system with what we've got and what we can hopefully get personnel wise.

So 'development' is not an excuse, it's a changing of game style, and FD - that takes time to 'develop', that's an unfortunate reality. Your patience will be tested - buckle up.

Buckling up it is, but on the last hole, not sure how log it will be before I burst.

 

[sideswipe]

Patience I have right now but now sure for how long. I was reminded of the saying 'Do something' on Friday.

Actually I don't like the saying 'development year', think it is just an excuse.

"Do something" - great coach's speech, but it actually did nothing good. The hawks were 20 points down when the speech was delivered. They lost by 55.

 

[Maggie5]

"Do something" - great coach's speech, but it actually did nothing good. The hawks were 20 points down when the speech was delivered. They lost by 55.

I couldn't remember if it was Kennedy I was thinking of or Jack Dyer broadcasting on the radio.

Still my point remains.

 

[Big Bryza]

What is it you like about Poulter. I just see an outside player without the tools tricks or awareness for the role.

Bulk him up and he could be an OK back flanker I think, maybe.

Poulter is slow and can't kick. Not sure he makes it at AFL level.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Poulter is slow and can't kick. Not sure he makes it at AFL level.

I don’t think he’s slow, but he’s not fast. I don’t think he can’t kick, but I don’t think it’s a strength either. He’s a very likeable vanilla, unfortunately. I pray he can develop more weapons somehow.

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

I must admit l have been disappointed with the team selections of the current coaches. They seem to be sticking with basically the same selection criteria of last season, and that is the tried and tested, and not given the opportunities to and consistently play Macrae, Poulter, McInnes etc, and continue with players that just aren't performing at senior level....