Autopsy Blew our chances against Carlton

[SSwans2011]

Shame. I can see Stephen's upside but JMac hadn't convinced me. Often too cocky or too cute when he's playing well but too often gormless under pressure. Stephen's attitude is much improved. He's going in hard more and doing the basics better. He looks like a kid who has discovered that talent counts less than effort at AFL level

McInerney is clearly in front of Stephens on exposed form, but I do agree that he's a little overrated and in turn Stephens is a little underrated on this board. Don't think the gap is as big as many on here would have you believe.

 

[ErrolisGoldun]

Was at the game and here are my take outs:

• what was our game plan on first half, was slow and terrible and more trying not to lose the game rather than win it.
• the way we played 2nd half was how we should try to start games going forward, we play best with speed on the game
• umpiring in 3rd quarter for a 10-15min spell was atrocious which actually stopped our momentum starting with TDK ruck free kick centre bounce
• I was wrong about McLean and he played a huge game for us tonight, that should know be his benchmark
• McCartin was superb and so was Melican
• we seemed overawed at times in first half
• Papley’s work in centre bounce was electric
• Parker stays forward next year
• how did we have a 1 v 3 in our back line for Carlton’s last goal?
• we need to stop kicking the ball long to the hot spot with a pack, didn’t create one goal
• forwards need to separate and lead and create space and more 1v1’s
• shattered that we haven’t learnt from the Giants elim final loss of 2yrs ago with poor kicking for goal, we need to be cleaner and someone needs to stand up and kick the tough goals when it matters most.
• Gulden, Lloyd, Lizard were all superb
• did well to get close but we should have beaten Carlton, hopefully this gives the hunger for next year with an extra few weeks off to be spent getting back to fitness of 2022.

 

[Swannie0307]

Was at the game made no sense, there was about 4 free’s paid after it that were critical too.

They just shouldn’t pay any free kicks in the ruck, we never win any in the ruck for some reason.

Cotterall - dangerous tackle
Cripps - HTB on Lloyd

We’re the other stand outs that I am still struggling to understand how they were paid.

The umpire shouldn’t pay free kicks for dangerous tackles, let the MRO suspend players if it’s actually dangerous that’s more of a setter at unless it’s blatant.

It killed our momentum in 3rd quarter and got Blues 3 goals, really hard to swallow.

Was Logan’s arms chopped in 4th quarter or did the Carlton player actually spoil it?

I could conservatively say we did not get at least 5 or 6 HTB’s / incorrect disposals… these are soul destroying because the boys are not getting rewarded for their pressure & tackling .. and a few of these non decisions led to Carlton goals.
That said, we missed too many shots at goal

 

[zyzzbruh]

Injury and fitness. Just can't get a full pre season, a long run at it, and it shows.

I think it's more than that. He seems to lack desire to impose himself on a contest when he's not in prime position. It's almost like he psyches himself out of it. And when he kicks at goal he doesn't stand over it with confidence and follow through. He needs to toughen up. The amount of intercepts the blues took tonight when amartey should've affected the contest is unacceptable. Sam Reid wouldn't have let that happen. It was the stark contrast between this game and vs melb last year.

 

[Troystenvic]

Ok, definitely agree with you re Amartey. No idea what to expect from him next year. Second to the ball all night but clunks a couple and slots one from 55 and he looks like a star.

That's what stars do I guess. I know he is young but he needs to throw his frame around a bit more. Another preseason and he will be better. I hope. Lots of marling and goal kicking practice

 

[ErrolisGoldun]

Shame. I can see Stephen's upside but JMac hadn't convinced me. Often too cocky or too cute when he's playing well but too often gormless under pressure. Stephen's attitude is much improved. He's going in hard more and doing the basics better. He looks like a kid who has discovered that talent counts less than effort at AFL level

100% agree, I think Stephens penny has dropped and I really liked his 3-4 weeks of forty prior to being dropped.

I think he will have a break out year in 24, but unfortunately won’t be with us.

Jmac did some nice things but was off the pace and was the wrong call to bring him back

 

[swan_wa]

Except he was our best in the 2021 final against GWS, was good in our prelim win last year, two of his best games in the H&A were against Collingwood and Geelong.

Nobody knows exactly how much coin he is on, and even if he is collecting a huge pay check that’s the fault of list management for having misplaced priorities

He had 16 disposals against Collingwood this year, there were 10 players who had the same or more disposals than him and he kicked 1 behind for the day. if that was one of his best games I’d hate to see a poor one…

 

[Big Blood]

Ha, the look on those Carlton fans' faces after that McLean goal. A lifetime of poor choices passing before their eyes. Priceless.

Yeah we should have had at least three goals in the first, but Carlton squandered a few chances too.

Weirdly similar pattern to last night's game. Collingwood kicked 2 goals in two minutes I found myself thinking, I bet that will be the difference. Melbourne spent the whole night chasing, nearly ran them down. Those two easy goals in the first five minutes killed us too.

But still happy with the way we fought back. We looked buried and lost, huge crowd against us, had been written off by every expert and still nearly stole it.
I think this game was the making of some players, McLean and McCartin in particular, and a certain degree of redemption after the disaster of our previous final.
McCartin lined up against the 'best player in the competition', had 9 marks, 3 contested, 10 contested possessions, 12 intercept possessions (most on ground). Curnow kicked just 1 goal, had 4 score involvements. McLean had 9 score involvements, was an absolute rock around the ground.

It was one of those years when most things went wrong but we dragged ourselves into the eight. Next year, no injuries, right in the premiership window.

Really hope we go after Grundy. After being on the back page every week for two years, he's got to feel the attraction of off-Broadway, plus guarantee of never playing seconds again. Plus we're not Port. A nice kid like him from Unley doesn't want to schlepping to Alberton every day.

 

[zyzzbruh]

They deserve lots of kudos for the decision to bring Melican in. Was a very gutsy call.

But yeah selecting McInerney over Stephens was never going to be a game-breaking call IMO. The frustration there is compounded by it being such a familiar selection error for us in finals.

Having been at the game I'm not putting any blame on mcinerney. In the first half especially I lost count of the amount of times mcinerney was putting himself in a perfect position on the outer wing waiting for the switch and over the top. At our best when we're cutting into the middle of the ground we always use him, tonight we didn't. First half especially, constantly bombing down the line. He was much more effective in the second half when we started taking the game on and using the width of the ground.

 

[ErrolisGoldun]

I could conservatively say we did not get at least 5 or 6 HTB’s / incorrect disposals… these are soul destroying because the boys are not getting rewarded for their pressure & tackling .. and a few of these non decisions led to Carlton goals.
That said, we missed too many shots at goal

Yep the most glaring was a Cripps holding the ball with incorrect disposal in 2nd quarter not paid and Cripps tackle on Lloyd in 3rd quarter which slipped and Lloyd got a handball out which was paid and they scored a goal.

It is soul destroying.

But you are right, we missed our chances and made bad decisions going inside 50, we should have won the game

 

[Dubai Quacker]

I want some of whatever caesar88 has been drinking.

 

[Kennedy Parker]

He had 16 disposals against Collingwood this year, there were 10 players who had the same or more disposals than him and he kicked 1 behind for the day. if that was one of his best games I’d hate to see a poor one…

2022 mate. I think most people would acknowledge that he’s had a poor season this year.

But the narrative that he never plays well against strong opposition even when he is in form doesn’t align with reality.

 

[RubbaDuck]

McInerney is clearly in front of Stephens on exposed form, but I do agree that he's a little overrated and in turn Stephens is a little underrated on this board. Don't think the gap is as big as many on here would have you believe.

JMac might improve incremantally but I can't see him having a break out year. I could be wrong. By contrast, Stephens strikes me as parhaps one solid half season away from the big boost in confidence he needs to begin to take the game on. He shows glimpses.

 

[Kiama Chris]

As much as I don't want to acknowledge it, I can't ignore the Adelaide vibe of them being happy with those two calls tonight. One was correct, not sure of the second but was always going their way when goal ump soft called it as touched.

First one absolutely correct. You could see the change in the rotation of the ball. The second one the ball and hand were very close and you couldn't be 100% sure on the TV. Thought it was probably right.
But you're right about the vibe!

 

[.Shotties.]

I’ll always remember that bloody centre bounce free, straight after we’d kicked 2 quick goals in the 3rd.

Yeah normally if you run under the other ruck and make contact without jumping it's a free against you but

 

[.Shotties.]

That side is better than 8th easily imo, maybe I overrated the list

Season is a shit show but you can't do much about losing almost your entire KP corps to collision injuries or concussion at various points for half the season.

 

[Kiama Chris]

I had the same thought. Not sure McKay, McCartin and Melican can be your 3 key defenders though.

That being said, Rampe isn't much more agile than any of them these days.

Two out of those three only, not all of them. WAY too clumsy. Doubt McKay is coming. No big fish in defence. Think Fox may be pretty much done. I believe that:
Cunningham Melican Blakey
Lloyd McCartin Florent Rampe
is likely to be our starting back 7 next season if all are fit. I would like to see us experiment with playing Lloyd further upfield and bring in Arnold or Francis as an interceptor to free up Blakey more, provided they show enough in preseason.
Making the assumption that Gould is leaving.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Yeah normally if you run under the other ruck and make contact without jumping it's a free against you but

Did you work out the Jmac 50? I still have no idea what he did.

 

[RubbaDuck]

100% agree, I think Stephens penny has dropped and I really liked his 3-4 weeks of forty prior to being dropped.

I think he will have a break out year in 24, but unfortunately won’t be with us.

Jmac did some nice things but was off the pace and was the wrong call to bring him back

I get tired of us training up and persisting with talent only to see the talent walk. Look at Hewitt, we knew he wanted out and figured we could cover him because we never got to find out what he was truly capable of. Newman has become a skilled small defender. Aliir had to play every tall position when we lost our entire spine in 2020. We knew he was good enough to become an All-Australian. We did pour resources into his development but perhaps we asked too much of him. I get why he took that work elsewhere, though I think he was wrong. Then finally there was Dawson - who, like Mills, served a long and challenging apprenticeship at the Swans. We knew how incredibly talented Dawson was but just before he was to step into the midfield he was snatched by Adelaide after his wife got go-home-fever. He became their inspirational captain and All-Australian after just one season there. We used the AFL's generous compensation to buy a bag of oranges for half-time. I could also mention players like Membrey and Nank, discards who both turned gold outside of the Swans.

I worry we're letting another talented player walk for nothing, before we've assessed his full potential. It's tough for every club to hang onto potential when they're not getting games, but much more so for non-Victorian clubs.

 

[Swannie0307]

2024 wishlist:

• 1 decent ruckman
• 1 decent KPD
• Sheldrick to have breakout season in the guts
• Parker to play mainly forward (not fast nor fit enough to play midfield anymore)
• Gulden deservedly had AA season but still should be used more by teammates/Horse (when you have a Messi in your team, just give it to him FFS)
• Hayward taken out of leadership group (maybe that’ll help regain some form)
• Horse to learn about the Sub rule
• 2 co-captains = Cal and Errol

 

[Swan4Life]

I drove down in crappy weather for this and I am livid.

The effort was very good for the most part, barring a few soft contests here and there. But the execution and the decision making was mostly putrid. I must have aged another 5 years tonight. And I certainly cannot ignore the blatant one-sided umpiring, particularly on the non-HTB rulings, utterly ridiculous.

A serious football club is a ruthless football club. And if we are going to be ruthless in the pursuit of excellence, nothing less than a full root and branch review of the playing group and, even moreso, the coaching group performance this season will suffice. The brain dead plays tonight alone (I think we streamed into an open forward 50 on at least 4 occasions for a net return of 0.1, and the amount of times we had a 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 then held onto the ball for so long that 5 or 6 Carlton defenders filled all the spaces in our F50 before we pulled the trigger - Heeney I'm looking at you and your 800K wage) warrant this. And IMO, someone has to be fired for this wastefulness. It's been a recurring theme all year.

Kudos to the likes of TMac, HMac, Errol and Hickey for their heart and soul efforts. But there were simply too many passengers tonight - on and off the ground.

I had a Blues fan tap me on the shoulder straight after the siren and tell me what an unbelievable club we are because we fight to the very end. I said that's nice of you to say that but we just weren't smart enough tonight. At some point, we all need to accept that fight alone is nowhere near enough.

Comiserations all and see you in the draft thread in a few months.

 

[Swannie0307]

Did you work out the Jmac 50? I still have no idea what he did.

Yeah the Carlton player played on and ran towards Jmac who was standing still, but that bald pr*ck of an ump ruled that Jmac encroached on the mark or something, crazy?!

 

[Swannie0307]

I drove down in crappy weather for this and I am livid.

The effort was very good for the most part, barring a few soft contests here and there. But the execution and the decision making was mostly putrid. And I certainly cannot ignore the blatant one-sided umpiring, particularly on the non-HTB rulings, ridiculous.

A serious football club is a ruthless football club. And if we are going to be ruthless in the pursuit of excellence, nothing less than a full root and branch review of the playing group and, even moreso, the coaching group performance this season will suffice. The brain dead plays tonight alone (I think we streamed into an open forward 50 on at least 4 occasions for a net return of 0.1, and the amount of times we had a 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 then held onto the ball for so long that 5 or 6 Carlton defenders filled all the spaces in our F50 before we pulled the trigger - Heeney I'm looking at you and your 800K wage) warrant this. And IMO, someone has to be fired for this wastefulness. It's been a recurring theme all year.

Kudos to the likes of TMac, HMac, Errol and Hickey for their heart and soul efforts. But there were simply too many passengers tonight - on and off the ground.

I had a Blues fan tap me on the shoulder straight after the siren and tell me what an unbelievable club we are because we fight to the very end. I said that's nice of you to say that but we just weren't smart enough tonight. At some point, we all need to accept that fight alone is nowhere near enough.

Comiserations all and see you in the draft thread in a few months.

100% agree

 

[Swannie0307]

I get tired of us training up and persisting with talent only to see the talent walk. Look at Hewitt, we knew he wanted out and figured we could cover him because we never got to find out what he was truly capable of. Newman has become a skilled small defender. Aliir had to play every tall position when we lost our entire spine in 2020. We knew he was good enough to become an All-Australian. We did pour resources into his development but perhaps we asked too much of him. I get why he took that work elsewhere, though I think he was wrong. Then finally there was Dawson - who, like Mills, served a long and challenging apprenticeship at the Swans. We knew how incredibly talented Dawson was but just before he was to step into the midfield he was snatched by Adelaide after his wife got go-home-fever. He became their inspirational captain and All-Australian after just one season there. We used the AFL's generous compensation to buy a bag of oranges for half-time. I could also mention players like Membrey and Nank, discards who both turned gold outside of the Swans.

I worry we're letting another talented player walk for nothing, before we've assessed his full potential. It's tough for every club to hang onto potential when they're not getting games, but much more so for non-Victorian clubs.

Well said. You forgot Darcy Cameron… what we would do to have him right now!

 

[Kiama Chris]

I drove down in crappy weather for this and I am livid.

The effort was very good for the most part, barring a few soft contests here and there. But the execution and the decision making was mostly putrid. And I certainly cannot ignore the blatant one-sided umpiring, particularly on the non-HTB rulings, ridiculous.

A serious football club is a ruthless football club. And if we are going to be ruthless in the pursuit of excellence, nothing less than a full root and branch review of the playing group and, even moreso, the coaching group performance this season will suffice. The brain dead plays tonight alone (I think we streamed into an open forward 50 on at least 4 occasions for a net return of 0.1, and the amount of times we had a 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 then held onto the ball for so long that 5 or 6 Carlton defenders filled all the spaces in our F50 before we pulled the trigger - Heeney I'm looking at you and your 800K wage) warrant this. And IMO, someone has to be fired for this wastefulness. It's been a recurring theme all year.

Kudos to the likes of TMac, HMac, Errol and Hickey for their heart and soul efforts. But there were simply too many passengers tonight - on and off the ground.

I had a Blues fan tap me on the shoulder straight after the siren and tell me what an unbelievable club we are because we fight to the very end. I said that's nice of you to say that but we just weren't smart enough tonight. At some point, we all need to accept that fight alone is nowhere near enough.

Comiserations all and see you in the draft thread in a few months.

I like a lot of what you say here, especially about some of the brain dead stuff. There's a fair bit more to that too that extends right through the season.
Where possibly we differ is with what the word "ruthless" means. If you mean "honest, direct, thoughtful and tough" then I agree. If you mean "nasty, derogatory and shaming" then I don't.
And evaluation of the coaches should never happen in front of the players.
That evaluation needs to happen soon while it's still fresh in people's minds and maybe it needs outside facilitators too because it can be pretty tricky and destroying a half million dollar asset is pretty poor business. Just ask Don Pyke.